To think some online dating SA victims need to take more responsibility for their choices?

[Iatethelastbiscuit]

Last night I watched a bbc documentary about the high number of sexual assaults that occur on dates from app dating sites like Tinder. It’s horrific obviously and I’m not victim blaming here but some of these young women will chat to a guy for a few days then invite him over to their house or go to his house for a date. In the doc there was a lot of talk about how apps can keep women safe (annoyingly they kept saying “keep people safe” when we all know it’s women who are at risk), suggesting the apps do stuff like age verification and run background checks on every member. Never once was it mentioned that it might be a good idea if women took a bit of responsibility for their own safety. Eg. Some basic safety tips like meet in a public place, don’t invite a total stranger over to your house etc. The fact that all the women who were sexually assaulted in this doc had done this was quietly ignored. Are people so paranoid of looking like they’re victim-blaming these days that they’re ignoring the most basic safety rules?! No it’s not a woman’s fault if she’s assaulted but young women need to be learning how to stay safe. There will always be predators out there, that’s not going to magically change if an app brings in background checks (which won’t make a difference for most anyway). Women need to learn how to stay safe and the bbc needs to not be so woke that they’re too afraid to give women safety tips for fear of looking like they’re victim blaming!!

OP I believe was talking about dates arranged online in private places where non consensual sex crimes are committed. Ie, opportunistic as opposed to longterm and complicated as SA in a relationship can be.
If you think I am supporting or excusing any of the men concerned , you have missed my point.

The issue is that you can say that it's the fault of the men (which it is), or that men should be taught to know better (which they should), but many men commit rape and sexual assault even though they know it's wrong, and to be blunt, the fact that it wasn't your fault doesn't un-rape you.

There are some situations that can't be avoided, because you're a child, or because the man seemed trustworthy over time, or a multitude of other reasons - but there are some situations that can be avoided, such as inviting a man home before you get to know him, or bringing an unrelated adult man to live with you and your children.

Pragmatically, it's about managing risk, where possible. I absolutely talk to my children about the importance of enthusiastic, on-going consent, but I also advise them on how to stay safe, and minimise risk.

@Olinguita maybe if the OP had said that it is a crying shame in this day and age that women still have to be responsible for men's appalling behaviour and propensity to sexually assault women they go on dates with, those of us protesting that she is victim blaming would have agreed instead.

I'm not stupid or living in utopia and I told my daughter all the sensible things to do to be risk averse and remember that every man she meets is potentially likely to assault or attack her. I take the same precautions myself. BUT FUCK ME, does it grate on me, that I have to be responsible for treating every unknown man like he is a potential malevolent force against me and protect myself accordingly. We have to get men to do better!

I initially thought, yes it is risky inviting a relative stranger to your home, but this reply has really made me think! As a woman, I have been conditioned to take the blame for men’s appalling behaviour… it is always our behaviour that needs to change, but you are right! The onus is on men to change!

@comeoncolleen I simply asked a question - nothing more. However, I do think that as long as we refer to attacking a woman as in some way "casual" because it wasn't long-term domestic abuse in a relationship, we are undermining and down-grading what is happening to us at our own detriment.

No women are not responsible for the appalling actions of men BUT they are responsible for taking measures to keep themselves as safe as possible.

We should absolutely focus on changing the behaviours of abusive men (and to a smaller degree of abusive women) but until we live in a utopia we HAVE to acknowledge the world we live in is not safe.

Unfortunately online dating breeds familiarity when you've been chatting with someone for a few days/weeks but they are technically strangers so why the fuck would anyone invite them to their own home for a first date?!

One night stands aside (which I have nothing against apart from how 9/10 times the sex is unsatisfactory) going over to their place or them to yours is such a low effort date it's insane

I don't think it's victim blaming. The OP has clearly stated that it's not the women's fault, and of course we should teach men not to rape.

But men rape. I doubt we will ever get to a society where no men rape.

So I think not discussing with women how to keep safe is doing them a disservice, because right now we live in a culture where men hurt us. There is no point not giving or not taking safety advice because 'men shouldn't be doing it' and it shifts the emphasis from a man's issue to a woman's issue.

I'll be telling my daughters not to take strangers home, to meet them in a public place, to tell people where they are etc. Although a lot of rape and other assaults also happen from people they know, and I'll be telling them that also. That doesn't take away at all from the fact I think men should be brought up to respect women, not attack them, and the police and justice system should be overhauled so its no longer a crime in theory only

And I was trying to clarify my point. We don't agree but it's good to have the discussion.

I have to say I find the whole “teach men not to rape” thing pretty meaningless. I’ve yet to hear a convincing explanation for what this looks like in practice, beyond what we already do.

A rape conviction is already one of the most stigmatised convictions a person can hold. Boys are already taught about consent in school. IMO very few men rape because they don’t know what rape is.

I don’t believe we will ever eradicate rape or come close to doing so. However I do believe much, much harsher penalties for all sexual crimes and a complete overhaul of the rape justice system could help reduce numbers. Certainly more than any nebulous “teach men not to rape” stuff…

Unfortunately, while rape exists and men are stronger than women, women must always carry more awareness than men do of the risk attached to some situations.

That’s not to say any of the individual women in this doc are in any way responsible for what happened to them - they are not.

Can @Iatethelastbiscuit or anyone else link to the BBC documentary please?

c.f. "I'm not racist but ..."

It's 2026 OP and women aren't supposed to take responsibility for anything. Not their own safety and not even when they murder all their kids. We are simultaneously empowered independent women and delicate flowers with no more agency than a child. OF COURSE a woman should be able to invite a random person to her house (within a sexual context like a dating app no less) and have NO EXPECTATION that this could go wrong in any way.

All of this can be fixed by teaching "men not to rape". If only Peter Sutcliffe and Levi Bellfield and Wayne Couzens and all the other psychotic insane men that populate the world had been taught not to rape then, ipso facto, no one would have been raped.

If you are a woman with any braincells or concept of self preservation you will naturally ignore this cloud cuckooland approach to modern life. Alternatively you can swan about safe in the knowledge that, however little precautions you take, you can always blame "men" and "the apps" and "schools" and the "government" when you come unstuck with a rapist.

I also remember a case where a man was invited to the house of a woman he met on line. She was being used to lure him into a trap where he was attacked by some men. Can't remember why they were after him but it didn't end well.

I always find that sentences like “I’m not victim blaming but…” are usually followed by the very thing they are claiming not to be

“Not to be rude but…” —> rude
”I’m not a racist but…” —> racist
“I’m sorry but…” —> not sorry

You are victim blaming op.

You lost me at the changing 'keeping people safe' to keeping women safe'. There have absolutely been men attacked, drugged, robbed. There was one recently of a women that drugged an online date to rob him and overdosed him who was being prosecuted for murder. Men in the gay dating community are also vulnerable to rape.

Meeting random people and not in a public place is a brilliantly safe idea, of course people should invite randoms home or turn up to their place what could possibly go wrong

It doesn't matter if you invite them over after 1 day or 100 days. Men who abuse women will simply play the long game and be super nice and charming until they get to a place where the woman is comfortable to trust them. It's awful to put this blame on the women. It isn't the case that women who gets abused are stupid, it's simply the men who are abusive.

This.
It’s actually very dangerous to label everything as victim blaming and not take safe advice.
The men who rape will ALWAYS rape. Men who attack people will always do that. We can’t change it. So we have to protect ourselves. No way would I go to a mans house who I didn’t know.

I see your point but it’s also tiring how it is always framed as if, when it comes to women, men are just unable to control themselves. And it’s always refocused on what women should be doing.

Always.

However when there have cases such as Stephen Port (the man who met guys, brought strangers back to his house and killed them) and the other man in Manchester who would meet strangers on grindr, bring them back to his flat and rape / sexually assault them none of the media articles question why the men were meeting strangers. Not one. This narrative is reserved for women who are seen as the guardians of male behaviour.

That said I do agree women just should not trust strange men. Sorry if some men feel that’s unfair.

But the reality is a man can just as easily assault you after 15 dates as he can after 1 date.

Does your advice apply to workmen in my home OP? They are strangers to me, and my husband works away, what should I do? Just hope they don't attack me?

Wow. Thanks for confirming that I could have avoided being raped at the age of 15 by not going to the guy’s house and meeting in public. I always suspected it but it’s always nice to know that it was my fault as a naive 15yo virgin.

The only person to blame for SA is the perpetrator. You are absolutely victim blaming here - this is 'she shouldn't have worn that' dressed up as concern.

Victims are not to blame for their attacks.

I've reported this thread as it's so utterly offensive. Are you a man OP?

I go back and forth on this for so long

You could say It’s like leaving your front door wide open and then being shocked your tv is nicked. We should just teach people not to rob houses …. Yea we do and most people don’t but you will always get one dickhead who doesn’t give a shit. Same with men. Most men don’t sexually assault women but there will always be the few that do.

I think the difference is many men think they have the right to women’s bodies and you only need to look at the stats on attacks on women who know their abuser. The way men shout at women out of their cars, the way they upskirt women, even the trans movement is just another example of men thinking they have access and a right to women.

then I think about the fact you have pedo’s who everyone can agree are terrible and it’s mostly still men and they just hide it better from other men but they still do it.

i think women need to take their own safety seriously but also men are generally gross