To think some online dating SA victims need to take more responsibility for their choices?

[Iatethelastbiscuit]

Last night I watched a bbc documentary about the high number of sexual assaults that occur on dates from app dating sites like Tinder. It’s horrific obviously and I’m not victim blaming here but some of these young women will chat to a guy for a few days then invite him over to their house or go to his house for a date. In the doc there was a lot of talk about how apps can keep women safe (annoyingly they kept saying “keep people safe” when we all know it’s women who are at risk), suggesting the apps do stuff like age verification and run background checks on every member. Never once was it mentioned that it might be a good idea if women took a bit of responsibility for their own safety. Eg. Some basic safety tips like meet in a public place, don’t invite a total stranger over to your house etc. The fact that all the women who were sexually assaulted in this doc had done this was quietly ignored. Are people so paranoid of looking like they’re victim-blaming these days that they’re ignoring the most basic safety rules?! No it’s not a woman’s fault if she’s assaulted but young women need to be learning how to stay safe. There will always be predators out there, that’s not going to magically change if an app brings in background checks (which won’t make a difference for most anyway). Women need to learn how to stay safe and the bbc needs to not be so woke that they’re too afraid to give women safety tips for fear of looking like they’re victim blaming!!

This post needs repeating.

And to everyone comparing rape to car theft, just stop. How crazy is it to compare the damaged complexity of men’s and women’s roles and positions in society to a piece of metal?

Those of you saying I’d never do that or my DD would know never to invite a stranger into their house. Great. That means you’re both confident women.

But there are many many women who don’t have confidence, who have been conditioned to subvert their needs to accommodate men’s wishes, who have internalised societal messages that women exist to please men, and that there is nothing worse than being a single woman. Crucially, the message that women should not say ‘no’ to men is repeated in a multitude of different and subtle ways. These men may have pushed to be invited or cajoled or charmed.

Yes, there perhaps are too trusting women inviting the wrong date back home. But god, how can anyone, anyone, then think that being subsequently raped was on her?

Yes, there perhaps are too trusting women inviting the wrong date back home. But god, how can anyone, anyone, then think that being subsequently raped was on her?

Because it's just like a pedestrian coming out of nowhere while you're driving and running into your bonnet. Apparently.

Also when does someone stop being a stranger ?
the first time you invite them back or the fifth date ?
As we know it’s not just strangers who are violent to and rape women.

Good to see pagans have found common ground with the Taliban.

Honestly, that post you quoted seems as stupid as a 'Drug Addiction Prevention Tips" list that details how, as a drug dealer, not to sell drugs to people. What's the point of it?

However, I do agree that a victim should never be held responsible for what a perpetrator does, regardless of the situation.

Just checking to see we’ve had the ‘In an ideal world…’ and comparisons to cars/watches etc arguments. Yes! What a surprise.

No, victims of sexual assault are in no way to blame for what happens to them. Ugh.

You can teach men and boys until youare blue in the face, there will still be rapists. That is the reality of the human species.
No point in arguing the rights and wrongs of it. The wrongs are more than clear.

It is however reality and women have been dealing with that reality forever and taking appropriate steps to protect themselves.

Should we have to ? No.
But it would be no great comfort to me to think "But I am in the right" whist being assaulted. I would prefer not to be assaulted and unfortunately the reality of human men , means constantly making choices which I hope will keep me safe.

When I started telling my young DD about not going to the park at night, not to go for a walk in the dark by herself, I was incredibly depressed realising that I now never go for a walk in the park at night. But my DH never thinks twice about doing so. It would never occur to him not to walk because ’just in case’.

It’s anger inducing and so depressing that men still commit violent crimes against women and the response is for women to keep shrinking their worlds and actions.

@montysmaw when you say there is no point arguing the rights and wrongs of women being attacked / assaulted / assailed / raped etc by men - that is a bit like saying that there was no point arguing that women should get the vote / own their own property / have their own bank account!

Surely we have to argue that it is wrong for women to have to see every male they meet as a potential predator? Surely we have to argue that men need to be responsible for their behaviour and not be attackers / assaulters / assailants and rapists?

In the meantime, yes of course, we as the weaker and more vulnerable half of humanity will have to continue to be responsible for men's lack of responsibility, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't argue that it is wrong!!!!

But if those choices failed to keep you safe, it would still not be your fault. It would not be your fault if it happened without you making those choices. Some people are blasé, innocent, naive, manipulated or just plain stupid; they have the same right to safety as you. It's still not their responsibility not to be attacked.

And it might not be comfort to you in the moment, but it would most certainly help if society - and therefore law makers, jurors and people in personally and professionally influential positions of all kinds - properly understood and accepted that. Then laws, convictions, safeguards and senses of personal responsibility would all be working towards that end.

What's the point of it?

Well, I didn’t think it needed explaining but the post by @dreamingofgoodhair was a piece of satire that beautifully illustrated the ridiculous and offensive situation we find ourselves in. It wasn’t really intended to educate men.

It was countering the messages repeated ad nauseum including on this thread telling women it’s our responsibility not to get raped. That we must constantly police ourselves in a myriad of ways so that we don’t get raped. To take this action or not take that action to avoid getting raped.

Those messages carry a subtext that if a woman does get raped, it’s her fault, right? Just see what the op posted. If a woman invites a stranger back home. If she gets drunk. Or goes for a walk at night by herself. Or enters an elevator with a man in it. Or allows her car to break down. Then she must take responsibility for herself. That means, taking responsibility for getting raped.

An offensive and depressing message. Especially coming from other women.

I do think that women need to be alerted to situations of higher risk. And don't see this as any more problematic than being advised that there is a high instance of pickpocketing in a particular tourist spot so be extra vigilant and leave valuables at home.
Provided, and this is key, the messaging is done with a focus on the behaviour of the criminals not on the behaviour of the woman.
So "Rapists have targeted women on dating sites and attacked them after being invited into their home" useful information.
While "Women who have invited men they've just met on dating sites into their home have ended up being raped" victim blaming.

And I clearly said in my post that I don't negate the necessity of women to protect themselves. I am, however, arguing with the OP's point that BBC should have explicitly told women to do it. Women know. I don't now a single woman who doesn't know. We don't need to be told by the BBC.

Do you not think this information is readily available already though?

It's a tough one as people are right, men need to not rape, women shouldn't have to second guess their every move.

But my nieces are young adults now and I wouldn't want to test the above principle on them; so if they asked me, I would advise that they shouldn't meet a man alone at home or a hotel on the first few dates.

I don't think it illustrated anything, personally.

I agree we don't want to send the message that people are responsible for avoiding being raped. If nothing else, its impossible for a potential victim to guarantee that unless they live as a hermit in the wilderness. But that doesn't mean you can't minimise risk where possible.

No one has said it's the woman's fault. The court should still find the man guilty in the unlikely event the CPS grows balls and prosecutes

Information about consent is also readily available for men, but that doesn’t mean that messaging should stop being pushed. It's important to keep informing people of these things.

Plus, women do have social pressures to fight against too, so reminding them to put their safety ahead of being people-pleasing can't hurt.

Nobody has said it's the woman's fault.

They absolutely have and it's in the frigging title. OP went on to say he's not victim blaming but again, it's in his damn title! People are saying getting raped is akin to running into moving traffic and equivalent!!

Good Lord, what's the point of engaging with this??

ETA: Ugh, I just clocked the username. SNAFU.

Do you think a predator will magically be prevented from sexually assaulting a woman on their fourth date because they met in coffee shops for the first three?

Don't be so ridiculous, please.

Have you heard of satire ?

People are pouncing on you, because you are not allowed to express basic common sense views without it being twisted and vilified. This kind of answers your own post about why the BBC left out basic common sense advice to women, because they too would be vilified. Sadly it is the world we live in today.

Yes. I genuinely, without any snark, fail to see the point, though. Is it that it's really stupid to expect rapists to stop raping? Because that was what I took from it.

I was raped in my home by a man I'd known for 6 years OP.

Do you think I put myself at risk?

I think what's readily available is the information that some women are raped.
However many women believe (correctly) that most men are not rapists and that there is a low risk of them encountering one that is (also correct) so they trust their judgement that the man they've had drinks with is not a rapist, which is statistically likely to be true.
However, the fact that men who are rapists are using online dating to access victims, and will present themselves as decent nice men to do so changes that risk level and that's important messaging.