To think some online dating SA victims need to take more responsibility for their choices?

[Iatethelastbiscuit]

Last night I watched a bbc documentary about the high number of sexual assaults that occur on dates from app dating sites like Tinder. It’s horrific obviously and I’m not victim blaming here but some of these young women will chat to a guy for a few days then invite him over to their house or go to his house for a date. In the doc there was a lot of talk about how apps can keep women safe (annoyingly they kept saying “keep people safe” when we all know it’s women who are at risk), suggesting the apps do stuff like age verification and run background checks on every member. Never once was it mentioned that it might be a good idea if women took a bit of responsibility for their own safety. Eg. Some basic safety tips like meet in a public place, don’t invite a total stranger over to your house etc. The fact that all the women who were sexually assaulted in this doc had done this was quietly ignored. Are people so paranoid of looking like they’re victim-blaming these days that they’re ignoring the most basic safety rules?! No it’s not a woman’s fault if she’s assaulted but young women need to be learning how to stay safe. There will always be predators out there, that’s not going to magically change if an app brings in background checks (which won’t make a difference for most anyway). Women need to learn how to stay safe and the bbc needs to not be so woke that they’re too afraid to give women safety tips for fear of looking like they’re victim blaming!!

Of which I already did say, that you can be raped by your uncle, dad, heck even brother. You cannot mitigate against such.

I was talking about a particular instance of which I gave an example, that we can try and have greater responsibility for our own safety, the same we do for our goods etc.

Who the hell is looking for a fairytale ending?

Are you saying it’s your own fault for being raped if you make bad choices?

FFS @CarbootJunction , maybe those women invited the man they'd met back to their house for a snog, listen to music and a late night drink. Forget the fucking fairytale that you think is pathetic. It doesn't matter what they invited the man back for. If he forced the woman to have sex with him and raped her - the man is the criminal.

You do judge someone who was raped. You judge yourself.

It's strange that you think that anyone who says "I don't blame women for being raped, I blame the rapist, but I think minimising risk is important" must be lying, but that you can actually blame someone for being raped, but when you claim not to blame others, you're telling the truth...? I don't think that's fair.

I think you've obviously still got a lot to work through, and should be kinder to your 15-year-old self. This thread seems to be hitting a nerve for you, which I can totally understand, but I don't think there's generally the blame you think there is. There are a few comments that do that, but the vast majority emphasise risk reduction and safety without blame.

And that woman is being blamed for exposing her child to a potential (and actual) danger, not for being raped herself, as per the last comment I read on the matter. When a child is at risk, then yes, the standards that the person (who is responsible for the child) are held to are higher, as they should be. Still, I don't think she is to blame. I do think her child might blame her, though.

@ThisOliveKoala I have repeatedly made the point through this long thread, that I belive that we are all responsible for our own risk assessment. I hope that every young woman growing up has the good fortune to have risk assessment explained to her and good role models to follow.

However, regardless of whether or not a woman does or does not assess risk in whatever way others see as appropriate / adequate / reasonable / suitable etc, she IS NOT responsible in any way for being raped, attacked, assaulted, abducted, murdered. Those responsibilities are with the criminals who do it.

You can believe what you want of my posts and you can claim I’m victim blaming if you like.

I beat myself up for things that, if a friend did the same thing, I wouldn’t dream of blaming them.

I know that victims often blame themselves, despite having no reason to. The issue is that some people clearly think that, whilst it’s bad someone was raped, they could have avoided it so it’s partially their fault (or in fact totally, according to a Pp).

Imagine not being able to say what happened because you know that will be the attitude you face.

Isn’t it odd that you and I are in the minority about this!

Imagine not being able to say what happened because you know that will be the attitude you face.

Have you missed the part of one of my previous posts where I said to you specifically that I suffered CSA (from my stepfather) and froze/fawned for months while it was going on because I was afraid I would be blamed? And that later on, after disclosing in spite of that fear, I felt my mother did at least partly blame me - and much later on, a therapist most definitely did imply it was my fault it continued for so long.

I don't have to imagine anything, thanks.

I'm also not sure what this has to do with the idea that encouraging people to be safe and minimise risk, and make safe choices wherever possible to protect themselves a little better, is somehow passing judgement on victims?

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Well said.

Your post reads like you are victim blaming OP even though you say that you aren't. By saying SA victims should take responsibility you imply that the responsibility is theirs.

It's fine to say women need to be aware of how to stay safe and minimise the risk of SA when online dating (or anything else) but they are never responsible for being SA.

@Anarchy99 I have been really surprised at how many people, most of whom are women themselves I'm guessing this being MN, still hold the view that there is an element of responsibility for sexual assault / rape / attack that is shared by the woman who was assaulted / raped / attacked.

I remember when I was sexually assaulted on the tube in the middle of the day, wondering if maybe it was because I was somehow dressed inappropriately (in my scruffy student clothes), would people think that I'd invited it on myself etc. I think I even wondered that myself - perhaps I had unknowingly sent out signals that I was up for a bit of sexual assault on my journey to the British Library. I never reported it, I only told my closest girlfriends.

However, we are never responsible for another adult's behaviour or actions.

The Accused with Jodie Foster should be shown in senior schools. It would be a very good discussion topic for older teenagers.

Well it's certainly something I taught my DS. Reinforced by 2 older sisters

In case it's helpful hearing from another stranger on the internet - you were 💯not to blame.

Partly it's human nature to look for a sense of safety by saying it (rape/murder/scams/insert random crime here) can't happen to them because of x/y/z. It's the same urge behind people buying woo crystals or not sitting in the 13th row of an airplane.

But also I think you're misunderstanding some posters like myself. We're not saying taking a few safety precautions will prevent you from being raped. We're saying it reduces the risk, even if only by a small bit. I'd only mention it with the idea of prevention, not as casting blame after the fact.

What I understood from the op (not the title but her actual post) is that she thinks organisations like the BBC should give basic safety advice instead of staying silent on the matter. We get safety campaigns about everything else (pickpockets in the airport, online scammers, break-ins) why not the dangers of going home with a stranger?

Though at the same time I absolutely think rape should be taken much more seriously as a crime - more arrests, longer sentences, absolutely no "what was she wearing" used by the defence. Rapists should get 100% of the blame for their crimes.

The sad reality is that even if women understood the danger they are putting themselves in regarding bringing dates home (and I believe 99.9% of women know this, we shouldn’t have to but hey ho) it won’t change a thing. Boyfriends will still rape there girlfriends, husbands of decades will still treat there wife’s as sex dolls with no feelings and so on and so on. It’s shit and I don’t see it ending no matter what safety procedures women take.

Yes, I think it's naive to think we can completely remove all crime from the world. Most men aren't violent rapists/abusers though. I often wonder where these posters live when they suggest it's utterly endemic in this country.

@Thatsalineallright There are categories of rape! They don’t all carry the same sentence and neither should they. The max sentence is LIFE. You cannot get more than life. Sentences have been increased but proving rape is not easy and it can be very nuanced, hence many “crimes” don’t get to court.

@OtterlyAstounding im not sure what you are getting out of hounding a rape survivor across this thread, repeatedly asking her to dissect her feelings about a traumatic event. Whatever it is, it’s deeply unpleasant. Please stop.

Seriously? She's the one who has repeatedly centred and inserted her own experiences into this thread as though they're the only ones that count, and I've tried to be thoughtful of her experience - meanwhile, when I shared my own painful experiences while empathising with her, she entirely ignored them, before later implying I wouldn't be able to imagine a situation I'd literally told her I experienced.

She also repeatedly tried to say that everyone who thinks it's important to minimise risk must never have experienced rape, and be ignorant on the subject - which I take offence to, as I am not.

Regardless, I haven't been hounding, just engaging - if she doesn't want to engage with me she can just not answer me, or ask me to stop. Really though, I find it rather insulting that you're turning this around on me. Perhaps you should stop attacking a rape victim? It's deeply unpleasant.

They were great. I do think our DCI set the tone and people either agreed with him or kept their mouths shut, I hope they agreed with him. I also think working in the vice area was a factor, we knew "the girls" they look out for each other, come and let us know if anyone under age girl was working, often give information about other things. They were just people to us, no different to the woman in the corner shop or anyone else. Most of them also accepted the police were just doing their job and paying their fine was like paying tax. I've had many a cup of coffee made by one of them who was trying to make sure I got their paperwork done in time for them to pick the kids up from school.

When a local doctor was murdered it was dealt with just the same.

You keep asking if she blames herself. You've asked that maybe three times? I think that counts as hounding. I have chosen not to share my experiences on this thread for exactly this reason.

We actually haven't been teaching men not to rape for all that long at all. We have been permitting and minimising certain types of rape for very much longer. Marital rape and 'Date rape' being examples. Your theory of contributory negligence is part and parcel of that.
We don't need to teach men not to rape. We (our society) needs to have a good hard look at how in a couple of decades, a baby boy can grow up to be a rapist. What are the sociological, psychological and experiential factors that turn some innocent boy children into monsters? And how does society prevent it?
This is the conversation we should be having not wasting time questioning why survivors chose to do what they did. The survivors behaviour isn't the problem.

The assaults on young men out at night are pretty haraising too. My son was set upon and beaten by a gang of about 4 or 5 when coming home late at night. Fortunately, he managed to run away.

Then you have the gay men who were preyed upon and murdered by that Tinder murderer and the police not really taking it seriously. I think gay men probably face as many risks as women, judging from what my son tells me.

You will be delighted to know I’m leaving and hiding the thread now as it has really upset me. I apologise for ‘repeatedly centring my own experiences’ or whatever.

You have clearly misunderstood what I have said. I am not going to ask you to stop because I don’t think you would.

I am sorry you were a victim but I am surprised that one victim would behave like that to another.

This thread has triggered the 15 yo me (oh sorry, centring myself again) so I won’t be back. Perhaps think twice before you go out of your way to make people feel bad.