To think that a comfortable middle class existence is basically unattainable for the vast majority of people.

[joelm1776]

I was thinking today about how much someone would actually need to earn per year in order to have a traditionally financially comfortable middle class existence. This, to me, means having a family one parent being able to look after the kids, being financially secure and having some pleasures in one's life on a regular basis but not necessarily any extravagant pleasures ie. not having multiple holidays a year, or luxury items or fine dining meals out. I know these things are fairly subjective, but I would like to think that my judgements here are quite middle of the road. I'll show you my working:

2 parents and 2 child household

1. £17,000 per year in mortgage payments for a 3 bedroom house (average price of a 3 bedroom house in the UK is about £275,0000)
2. £8,300 per year in supermarket shopping
3. £5,500 rough estimate for running 2 cars per year (one for commuting one for short journeys) including fuel, tax, MOT, insurance and maintenance.
4. £5,000 utilities, internet and council tax for 3 bedroom house
5. £1,000 per year on clothing (£20 per person per month)
6. £2,500 repairs and long term replacement fund for house.
7. £2,000 student debt
8. £6,000 one family meal out at a mid-range restaurant per week
9. £1400 2 night out for drinks with friends per month for each parent.
10. £3,000 one week family holiday to mainland European destination per year.
11. £1,500 pocket money for kids
12. £1,200 sports clubs and gyms memberships
13. £1,500 general household items excluding clothing and food
14. £2250 large purchase fund (e.g two cars lasting 15 years each, 4 smartphones lasting 5 years each etc)
15. £2,000 saved for other contingencies

Total = £60150 net + 7.5% saved as a pension = aprox £64650
Total gross = £94000

so basically you need to earn £100K even if you don't live in London, and only the top 5% of uk earners earn around this amount and most of those people probably work in London.

I know the the mortgage figure ignores the fact that people often have equity from other properties, but that makes the calculation a bit too complex

The real issue is housing costs, if you got on the ladder a while ago you won’t need the same income as people who bought in the last 5 yrs.

Why would any family need to eat out every week/ run two cars? Middle class or not?

I think you are portraying stereotypical mumsnet coded view of a middle class lifestyle here. Middle class people do not necessarily live as a nuclear family or want do comfortable generic middle class activities or even live in middle class areas.

I consider us middle class. We only holiday abroad once every 5 years, have Always just had the one car, eat out once a month and both work.

wage stagnation, inflation & the impact of frozen tax bands means you really don’t have as much money anymore.

My grandparents were the last generation in my family to live on one salary and they were always incredibly frugal, they wouldn't have had half the stuff on your list. They would have been absolutely horrified at the idea of a weekly meal out or paying for gym membership!

So I know it is hard for people now, but where has the expectation that you can afford all this on one salary even come from??

Id say your figures are fine but in our circle of 40-50 yr olds with two kids, we would have houses worth £500-1m, spend £25k on holidays, spend £400 pm on gym & hobbies for the family (easily). However, all the parents work, at least part time

This would be more upper middle class wouldn’t it? Higher incomes & assets

You wouldn't find a house in a middle class area for 275k!

Also most middle class women are degree educated and have a career if their own, there would be another income but a nanny's wages.

per year, for 2 kids works out at £15pw/£60pm

Depends on their ages and what the money is supposed to be for. DD12 has £20 pm ATM for "fun money", but nephew is 15 gets £50 per month and has to buy his own fancier toiletries, snacks, bus fares for meeting mates etc

They don't, but if you're middle class and comfortably off, need doesn't come into it.

Unfortunately, if you live rurally (like us), this is essential. Our bus route is all but gone. People in towns and cities can’t understand this.

I don't understand the assumption that a middle class lifestyle involves having one parent that doesn't work? Surely middle class couples are both likely to have professional careers that a) make it financially viable for both to work and b) make both more eager to maintain their careers? Sure, some people won't enjoy work and will happily quit to become SAHPs, and others will have kids with disabilities etc who need to have a parent at home. But I find it weird to present having a SAHP as some sort of middle class aspirational thing - from what I've seen, it tends to be more common for lower earners to stay at home because the cost of childcare is prohibitive?

The spend on clothes is far too low - £20 won't buy one pair of school shoes in Clarks

You are assuming a SAHP but also 2 cars and also kids are old enough to need pocket money and smart phones.

Thats upper middle class really.

My car is 15 years old btw; the breaks exploded recently but I can’t afford a new or even secondhand car without decimating my savings (which we need, because DH is only on temporary contracts).

People cut to your cloth. I appreciate those are ball park figures but there’s £10k you can take off easily including one one car (my ex cycled, others use public transport), cut back on memberships, twice a month for drinks, twice a year if I was lucky with little kids, less meals out, more economical supermarket shops, and so on, now most households have one parent working full time one part time, and that’s been the way since the 1980’s - this golden age of of parent at home was before you would be spending on these things, eating out was a rare treat for example

I think you're right, OP.

But I don't think it's anything to do with class. You just mean a comfortable lifestyle is unattainable for many people now, especially where only one partner is working.

I live in a sought after area in a rough part of the NE and my house was £350,000. I’m not middle class but my husband probably is tbh

Lots of posts suggest 7-10k just for Europe which is astounding.

A lot of posters on MNs are older though so it’s a different world.

If you’re saying middle class, I’d say higher mortgage payment, more than double for the European holiday and more again because I’d say more than a week. I’d add in something for UK based breaks, and an amount for Christmas/birthday presents.

Probably wouldn’t say eat out once a week. Maybe a takeaway? Also not sure why only 1 person is working

We are comfortably middle class and live in a £300K approx house with 4 beds in the NW of England. These figures are a fairly large over-estimate though the holiday is about right and the income is also about right except it comes from two of us plus rental income.
We only have one car, DH is now retired and I commute by bus and bike (£10/month on 4 bus fares), childcare costs are limited to one PGL holiday per year for DD.
DCs get £500 pocket money over the year (£5 each per week though we are a bit stingy).
We have a takeaway most weeks (£50) but we parents go out about 7 times per year as a couple. We probably go to the theatre as a family another 6 times.
I think we don't have as many expensive basics. We seem to spend about £300/month on groceries so that's £3600/year, we get milk and veg delivered but a lot of basics from Aldi and Lidl.
We save a lot so I guess that's the saving for future house. The mortgage is on our rental property so that income is net. I'm still saving a lot for my pension as I'm in a not very generous company scheme.

The people nitpicking over minor financial details are spectacularly missing the point.

OP is trying to highlight that generally, a comfortable lifestyle is increasingly unaffordable in the UK.

Our household income is around £130k but we don't feel that much better off today than we did pre covid when it sat at around £80k. Which is just mind boggling really.

This actually made me laugh. Typically middle class means one parent to looo after the kids, what is this the 1950s? And where are you going on holiday for 3k, 😂

But times have changed. Middle class means educated, and an educated woman wants a career not to be a house wife. That puts it down to 50k each, which is slightly above average, but nothing special salary wise.