To think that a comfortable middle class existence is basically unattainable for the vast majority of people.

[joelm1776]

I was thinking today about how much someone would actually need to earn per year in order to have a traditionally financially comfortable middle class existence. This, to me, means having a family one parent being able to look after the kids, being financially secure and having some pleasures in one's life on a regular basis but not necessarily any extravagant pleasures ie. not having multiple holidays a year, or luxury items or fine dining meals out. I know these things are fairly subjective, but I would like to think that my judgements here are quite middle of the road. I'll show you my working:

2 parents and 2 child household

1. £17,000 per year in mortgage payments for a 3 bedroom house (average price of a 3 bedroom house in the UK is about £275,0000)
2. £8,300 per year in supermarket shopping
3. £5,500 rough estimate for running 2 cars per year (one for commuting one for short journeys) including fuel, tax, MOT, insurance and maintenance.
4. £5,000 utilities, internet and council tax for 3 bedroom house
5. £1,000 per year on clothing (£20 per person per month)
6. £2,500 repairs and long term replacement fund for house.
7. £2,000 student debt
8. £6,000 one family meal out at a mid-range restaurant per week
9. £1400 2 night out for drinks with friends per month for each parent.
10. £3,000 one week family holiday to mainland European destination per year.
11. £1,500 pocket money for kids
12. £1,200 sports clubs and gyms memberships
13. £1,500 general household items excluding clothing and food
14. £2250 large purchase fund (e.g two cars lasting 15 years each, 4 smartphones lasting 5 years each etc)
15. £2,000 saved for other contingencies

Total = £60150 net + 7.5% saved as a pension = aprox £64650
Total gross = £94000

so basically you need to earn £100K even if you don't live in London, and only the top 5% of uk earners earn around this amount and most of those people probably work in London.

I know the the mortgage figure ignores the fact that people often have equity from other properties, but that makes the calculation a bit too complex

And as for having one parent not go out to work! We seem to expect our kids to have piles of expensive tech, luxuries, a functioning NHS from birth to our 90s, a robust pension scheme for all,two cars, holidays, thousands on eating out and drinking….on one salary and half the country’s families having an adult who doesn’t work or pay taxes.🤣

I'd agree that a joint family income of £100k is required to fund a comfortable but by no means extravagant middle class lifestyle. Certainly in the SE.

We earn that and we still don’t have a middle class comfortable lifestyle! Think you underestimated the tax burden and actual expenses seem higher e.g holidays for a family are more than £3k in school holidays that’s for sure!

I’ve never, ever lived in a household where only one adult worked. DH and I both work full time, both my parents worked full time, as did their parents before them and I’m late 40s.

Clar1ty
And as for having one parent not go out to work! We seem to expect our kids to have piles of expensive tech, luxuries, a functioning NHS from birth to our 90s, a robust pension scheme for all,two cars, holidays, thousands on eating out and drinking….on one salary and half the country’s families having an adult who doesn’t work or pay taxes.🤣

To be fair childcare costs a lot of people a whole wage- I was a sahm for 5 years because I paid to go to work (childcare plus my commute cost me two hundred over my wage) and our kids were first into childcare last out because of commute because we couldn’t afford to live near a big town/ city. Forget about the fact that our middle child was regularly sick and both of our managers were hinting something had to change. It’s not that one person doesn’t want to work, it’s that sometimes you have to evaluate whether it’s doing anything for your family to have two people out of the house seven to seven five days a week (no wfh or shorter word days then)

I think the tax burden now makes it near on impossible for middle income families to enjoy the same lifestyle as the generation before them.

It’s not particularly the rates of tax but the band thresholds - which are unchanged now for nearly a decade. This has dragged vast amounts of middle earners into paying the higher rate of tax.

I grew up in the 80s with what I believe was a comfortable, middle class lifestyle. Both parents were teachers. We had an ok house. Food and clothes we needed. A holiday each year but normally somewhere in the uk. We went abroad 3 times before I was 18. Eating out was a special treat for birthdays. We had music lessons paid for from child benefit. I think our idea of what a comfortable life looks has become so much greater than it ever was. Yes, cost of living is ridiculous, but so are our expectations of life now.

Er, it always was. The majority of people aren’t/have not been middle class.

We do 🤷🏻‍♀️. A seven night city break staying in an apartment plus flights, activities and meals out costs us around £3k all in.

🤣🤣🤣 They didn’t need the walking sticks before they set off on the massive trek to the toilets.

I dont agree with this. I earn loads and dont think its typical at all, no one i know eats out every week for example.

Its rare to have a sahm in middle class families, educated women want to work.

Its much easier, not to mention tax efficient to pay these costs through two earners. To get to 60k net you only need two earners on 43k each and thats not counting £2,430 tax free in child benefit for two kids. Yes you'd have to tighten your belts in the childcare years but its doable.

Agree with this. I don't know any stay at home parents any more. Having kids doesn't mean you can't work.

You easily can! My sister (household income about 170k) had a week in greece in may half term this year for less than this. It wont cover an AI luxury resort but it covered flights, a nice apartment in athens for 3 nights then 4 at a coastal/beach hotel with nice pools etc it looked fab.

And £1400 for 4 nights out!! Me thinks AI had a pop at the numbers..

What’s wrong with that?! I’d say it’s very normal for families to have 2 cars now. Most families I know have one for the mum and one for the dad. Add in adult children and some families have 3 or 4 cars…

I say that as someone who can’t drive and we don’t have a car but even I know it’s very normal.

What?! I went camping for €700 for a week in Ile De Re this year? I thought that was middle class?! It’s a lot more high season but still middle class?!
I know a couple who are literally landed gentry & they go camping!

So so true

Interesting which area of the coast did she go to?

Britain may be G7 by way of overall economic output but it is no27 in a list of countries based on per capita earnings and about to fall behind Poland. It is getting harder to scrape by and we have a government that is crushing any kind of entrepreneurial business spirit, the type that generates comfortable living. It is expensive to live here and costs are going up.
The type of existence you describe is a pipe dream for most

You're confusing 'middle class' with 'middle earners'. Most people in the UK and certainly on MN are middle earners and will only be able to live a modest lifestyle on their income.

Yes it’s bad. And instead of being outraged many people seems to think we should all live smaller more miserable existences, as evidenced by some me responses on this thread.

I think, based on house price, education, hobbies, & income most of my social circle & immediate family fall into the MC bracket you’ve described. Most would probably say they are working class based on their framing of the classes. But on paper they are MC.

We all live in a major poor northern city in the nicest area of that city.

Id say your figures are fine but in our circle of 40-50 yr olds with two kids, we would have houses worth £500-1m, spend £25k on holidays, spend £400 pm on gym & hobbies for the family (easily). However, all the parents work, at least part time

Was I was. SAHM OP, lived comfortable in my five bed on my husbands salary. Then I worked a bit sort time and slowly returned. Had fifteen year out of full time employment. Can’t have been that unusual as I had plenty of women to lunch with. My mother was a SAHM, my husband’s mother too.

If I were a new mum now there would be no five bed and no fifteen years of not working or of doing a bit part time. It’s a huge shift.

I wouldn’t say having a parent at home is a middle class ideal, out of all the people I know the middle class families are more likely to have 2 career orientated people. That’s the most expensive part of your post.

Plenty of nice ones in the north generally for this sort of ballpark figure, slightly less actually. It’s much cheaper in the north generally, not just the NE.