To think that a comfortable middle class existence is basically unattainable for the vast majority of people.

[joelm1776]

I was thinking today about how much someone would actually need to earn per year in order to have a traditionally financially comfortable middle class existence. This, to me, means having a family one parent being able to look after the kids, being financially secure and having some pleasures in one's life on a regular basis but not necessarily any extravagant pleasures ie. not having multiple holidays a year, or luxury items or fine dining meals out. I know these things are fairly subjective, but I would like to think that my judgements here are quite middle of the road. I'll show you my working:

2 parents and 2 child household

1. £17,000 per year in mortgage payments for a 3 bedroom house (average price of a 3 bedroom house in the UK is about £275,0000)
2. £8,300 per year in supermarket shopping
3. £5,500 rough estimate for running 2 cars per year (one for commuting one for short journeys) including fuel, tax, MOT, insurance and maintenance.
4. £5,000 utilities, internet and council tax for 3 bedroom house
5. £1,000 per year on clothing (£20 per person per month)
6. £2,500 repairs and long term replacement fund for house.
7. £2,000 student debt
8. £6,000 one family meal out at a mid-range restaurant per week
9. £1400 2 night out for drinks with friends per month for each parent.
10. £3,000 one week family holiday to mainland European destination per year.
11. £1,500 pocket money for kids
12. £1,200 sports clubs and gyms memberships
13. £1,500 general household items excluding clothing and food
14. £2250 large purchase fund (e.g two cars lasting 15 years each, 4 smartphones lasting 5 years each etc)
15. £2,000 saved for other contingencies

Total = £60150 net + 7.5% saved as a pension = aprox £64650
Total gross = £94000

so basically you need to earn £100K even if you don't live in London, and only the top 5% of uk earners earn around this amount and most of those people probably work in London.

I know the the mortgage figure ignores the fact that people often have equity from other properties, but that makes the calculation a bit too complex

Dinner for 4 people is easily £125. I was in the UK a few weeks ago (London admittedly) and it was minimum £20 for a main in very average places. Add 1 drink each and service charge and you’re already at £125 before any appetisers or desserts.

Also, totally agree with PP, £3,000 for a 1-week holiday for a family of 4 in the school holidays is very much on the low end.

I think some people on MN have very outdated views. It’s not 2019 anymore.

£1500 pocket money for kids!?

But most people aren’t middle class though. That’s just a segment of the population. People can only be middle class because a good number of people are working class or frankly destitute.

I’d say, yes, about £100k a year at a
minimum for a comfortable traditionally middle class life sounds about right, though I think your numbers are off. I’d consider us pretty MC. Our household income is probably around £100k, maybe a bit more. We have a much bigger and more expensive house. We have expensive hobbies. We don’t spend as much on cars or shopping or eating out as you propose. We don’t have gym memberships or regular nights out with friends, though we might have people over for drinks or coffee on occasion. I’m more the yoga retreat sort of middle class than the bottomless brunch with the girls kind. 😂

You can absolutely have a decent life on a household income of less than £100k. Most people don’t make that. But for a traditionally middle class family, yes, £100-150k is probably about right. But I’m not sure the spending would look as you have laid out here.

I don’t think a “traditional middle class lifestyle” involves two cars per household. That’s a fairly recent expectation.

I would say things like a meal out every week, pricey holiday and one parent not working is upper middle class. And that to me seems compatible with an above 100,000 wage. It's not super rich but it's well above UK average salaries which upper middle class salaries are/have always been.

I think its reasonable to want those things by the way, it's hardly wonten extravagance. But if it's comparing to what would have been a "typical middle class lifestyle/expectations" in years gone by then foreign holidays every summer weren't a typical experience. I didn't grow up dirt poor but even people I know with way more money (affluent middle class) often had their first holiday abroad in Europe as 10/11 year olds in the 90s. So it wasn't an expectation everyone would be flying to Spain/France/Cyprus every single year. There were a couple of people in my year who had gone to Disneyworld in the US and we were all very jealous.

Flying abroad holidays would have been even rarer in the 1970s. It was a big thing. Not a yearly expectation unless you were super loaded. And eating out too- I don't think eating at a nice place every single week was ever a thing. Maybe cheaper meals at the local or a takeaway for some but that would cost less even now.

It's harder to raise a family on a single wage now. But even in the past it was more normal for the SAHP to return to work once the children were older. And lots of (actually rich) people I know think they grew up poorer than they did because they remember things being tighter as smaller children when really it was just the family was on one salary. It was always the norm to cut back on expectations (meals out, expensive activities) when having a young family.

What is definitely more expensive is housing. I think "non-essentials" (holidays, meals out) have become more affordable/widely available but essentials (housing) less affordable and available. So you aren't comparing like with like if you are combining reasonable aspirations in the past (naice house) with typical expectations now (naice holidays) and expecting both to come at the same time on a single earners wages. It's like the best of both worlds. But the rise in house prices is the biggest issue IMO.

I don’t see having 1 parent at home as something to aspire to whatever’class’ you are

The two items that I think are potentially too high are eating out and two cars - lots of families don't need this.

But other people make good points about mortgages etc potentially being underestimated.

Your core point is that things cost a lot and wages have stagnated since 2010 (thanks so much for austerity Cameron/Osborne/Clegg/Alexander, you made the whole country poorer) - yes, this is correct. Average household income is too low relative to average costs and a lot of people have it much much, much tougher than that scenario.

I also don't agree that one income is necessarily the aim - but the lifestyle you describe takes more than many couples earn from two salaries anyway.

Isn’t middle class the class between upper and working? That’s what I thought it meant. Most people are working class. The upper class are so rich they don’t have to work and the middle class are the people who earn loads more than the average but still need to work.
Do you mean average working people? Because they are working class. I’m working class and don’t feel there’s anything wrong with that.

Maybe a bit less in mortgage payments because most people aspiring to a middle class lifestyle are waiting until they’ve got a bit of equity before having kids. A restaurant every week is a bit much in my opinion, never had that growing up (and most kids probably don’t value that anyway). But yeah, not insane figures overall.

The main thing I’d disagree on is considering that only one parent working is the default long term. I know plenty of families with one parent working part time or who took a break for, say, 5 years. I don’t know any families where one parent earns nothing at all long term, I didn’t when I was a child either, and I don’t quite understand why you consider that essential for a middle class lifestyle. Do you call it ‘traditional’ because it’s what you grew up with?

I think most families that want to prioritize financial comfort and holidays and so on would have two full time (or nearly full time) workers and save up in advance to cover the high cost nursery years, or accept that other things like holidays and meals out have to be skipped for a few years. For two professionals in their 30s - 40s to earn something like 100k gross jointly isn’t that crazy imo. Even two teachers would be around that mark after 10 years service, and that’s a famously low paid career. Sure there’s plenty of worse paid jobs but middle class aspirations would typically also come with a certain level of education and choice of career path. And there’s child benefit as well, not huge but it helps.

I am single (one DC left at home, had 3 in total) and sole earner and earn 73k. Mortgage 18k a year, and not working out other bills but an expensive dog (health issues meaning insurance premium is 3.4k this year). I wouldn’t say i’m struggling, I can definitely save money and go on holiday if I want to. I don’t waste money on eating out a lot, I can be frugal with food etc.

I don’t ever aspire to be middle class though, though I suppose on paper people may think I am. 3 high achieving kids (all state school, all top tier results), uni educated, in good careers or aspire to be for the youngest who is only 18). My parents were manual workers, and most of my oldest friends do that kind of work. I was pregnant when I did my GCSE’s back in the early 90’s and never for one moment thought i’d be earning 73k. So I am happy with what i have, very happy to be a home owner at last as I lived in South East for many years, which is too expensive for a single earner, especially as in 2018 I was only earning 28k.

I think you can always want more, but so many people are struggling to put food on the table. Sounds like you have a very nice life. Life is expensive right now. I am considering a 2nd job to try and clear my mortgage a bit faster, as I do have a serious health issue which is largely stable right now, but you never know when it might rear its head again.

I agree that the middle class life people expect to be able to attain is increasingly out of reach.

A £275k mortgage seems quite low - you’d need to spend double that to get a very ordinary house in much of the south of England.

And ditto on the holiday - £3k is (unbelievably) not much now for a weeks holiday for a family. I’ve spent almost that on flights this year for a trip during half term.

But - I think £60k net is very achievable between a couple, and not particularly unusual. It’s just that it doesn’t go as far as you would think.

I would say the people I know are solidly in ‘upper middle class’ territory and I can think of one SAHP - even if you can afford it, i think it’s not seen as desirable for a lot of people now.

Some of your assumptions are off the mark.

-one parent being able to look after the dcs, ie not work or only work school hours
-£175 a week for food for four people is a lot
-£100 a month on sports clubs - really !
-supper out once a week

I think if you want the lifestyle you describe, both of you need to work, in which case it is perfectly doable.

I’m a single mum with one dc. I’ve provided my ds and myself with a middle class lifestyle by putting in the hours and being careful with money. It isn’t that difficult if you avoid getting into debt in the first place and don’t waste money needlessly.

Middle class implies that half of people will be below this income

I think you are about right, OP, as I'm in the top 5% of earners and in the SE and DH works as well and we just about have a comfortable middle class lifestyle.

Has there ever been a time when this was a standard?
I think ordinary lower MC people in the past definitely had the houses. Maybe one car. The non-working or PT working wife.
Not the holidays, meals out, fast food, tech, clothes, interior decorating, international travel that are expected today.
I grew up in a family with one decent earner. SAHM. Five children. I think my Dad probably earned equivalent of about a £80k job.
We had a four bed detached house but we were very broke by today’s standards. Never ate out. Second hand everything. No holidays. Didn’t get a car or even a phone until I was a teenager.
Normal 70s British childhood.

With 2 DC I would (and have) cut back on other expenses in order to be able to have a 4 bedroom house rather than a 3 bedroom one. That to me makes for a more comfortable middle class existence than weekly meals out would.

Classes have changed financially. People have got to be savvy and make different decisions earlier in life when they are planning a future and both need to work.
Or choose what’s important to them, is it the best house and max out the mortgage or a cheaper option.

DP and I are from Working class families, our parents didn’t have money to throw away.
My parents area boomed in price
in recent years and DP and I couldn’t afford to buy property there, it’s an area popular with great high schools.

We bought a house in a very cheap area then climbed the career ladder and still live here. We have great savings, lots of holidays
and treats, pensions, etc but a small mortgage and 1 second hand car. Also only 1 child. We’ll be mortgage free by mid 40.

I appreciate it’s not always easy to find cheaper properties now though and even in the last ten years since we bought the cost of everything has gone up even cheaper areas. Or rent while you’re waiting to buy.
We are north west also. I know it’s harder in other areas.

@Meadowfinch ”-£100 a month on sports clubs - really!”

Round here the going cost for one 30 minute swimming lesson is £30.

The football my toddler goes to is £12.50 a week.

I can easily see how people would get to £100 a month on sports clubs! And that’s not including any kind of gym membership (for which you could easily be spending £100 a month too).

Does it? When and how?

2 adults and 2 children for a week seems reasonable to spend £3,000 to me in a year on holidays regardlessof how long they go on holiday for or where

. We are talikng about a life without too many financial worries - ie an ideal. Many families earning £100k a year would expect to spend more than that on holidays in a year , which makes the point even more

I completely agree op. Obviously you are going to get lots of comments telling you the amounts are outrageous or nowhere near enough where they live but they miss the point of it being an average as usual.🙄

I think your illustration is pretty clear . Many people have high expectations of what they can afford to do on what they earn. They see an income of £100k a year as rich, but it is probably just 'comfortable ' for most people and not enough for comfortable for those living in some areas where accommodation are much higher than average

i would add however that never in the history of human beings has the majority been able to afford an affluent 'middle class' lifestyle where money is not a major worry.

The question is probably whether we have a larger or smaller percentage of the population in that category than in the past.

I find it odd that so many people think that being middle class is about how much money you have.

When we go out for a meal at somewhere better than Greene-King or Nicholsons it soon gets to £80 for two.
Yes if you live in some suburbs many families have to have 2 cars, it's the only way to get 4 people to 4 destinations between 7:30 and 9:00. Some cities now charging a tax for on site car parking.

I completely agree with the point of your post although I think some of your costs are a bit low. It used to be that if you had a profession you could look after your family and as you worked your way up, you could afford a more comfortable lifestyle. The fact that nowadays there are teachers and police officers still living with their parents because they can’t afford to move out speaks volumes.
Two decent full-time salaries should mean a very good life indeed but it absolutely doesn’t any more.

Sorry but a lot in that list is tidiculous

1. 6,000 one family meal out at a mid-range restaurant per week
2. £1400 2 night out for drinks with friends per month for each parent.
3. £3,000 one week family holiday to mainland European destination per year.
4. £1,500 pocket money for kids
5. £1,200 sports clubs and gyms memberships

Seriously none of that alone is necessary and illustrates a huge sentence of entitlement. My parents were middle class and so are we. We never lived like that in the 80s and haven’t in the last 25 years. Bar a holiday I wouldn’t want to fritter money on any of that. What a waste!

Why is it middle class for one parent not to work? I find that bizarre- I'm definitely middle class and earn well - I don't know any families where one parent doesn't work. I know a lot of women who are part time when the kids are very young but everyone I know has a career and wants to progress & have job security.

People say about how they’d only eat out in a restaurant x times a week/ month- I’m always thinking Christmas has always only ever been the time of year we went to a restaurant- and I’ve no idea how people afford regular big days out, as in a theme park one week, big shopping day out, theatre/ concert etc