AIBU to think empty first class should be opened on crowded trains?

[boredsoscrollingonMNagain]

I was on a long journey this weekend , It was a 5 and a half hour journey with one change.

our first train was massively delayed , meaning we missed our next one. But , we coped and it’s all done now and we will get compensated .

However , I was really cross at this:

We had reserved seats on both trains. We don’t travel on trains with no reserved seats as my eldest is autistic and gets distressed with nowhere to sit. He prefers a certain seat, so we always try for that, but the main thing is he has a seat. The train was taken from 9 to 4 carriages so all reservations cancelled and this first train was a 2 hr journey for us. My husband wasn’t with us and we had large cases so I was stressed ! My eldest was obviously worried - luckily we found seats and all was ok . But , when the train came in I saw a carriage empty and my worry was getting these cases on alone and having no space , so I went to the empty carriage and was turned away because it was first class. We got on fine in the end, thanks to the help of lovely strangers and we got seats right next to first class and I could see in and it said all seats were available- not reserved - and maybe 2 people in the whole carriage. For the whole journey , the other carriages were like sardines - it was awful. They announced they couldn’t get the refreshment trolley out because it was so busy ( also it was during a heatwave ) . First class was empty. I saw a family - including a woman with a tiny baby in a carrier and young children, turfed out. I saw many families struggling to find places to sit.

Now , I understand if you have paid for first class and the carriage was full of people who hadn’t , you would be angry . I agree if you have paid first class you should be able to sit in it. But if it’s empty , why were people turfed out when everyone’s reserved seats were cancelled ? I would understand if first class was busy , so all were reserved and they kept that carriage for that reason - it costs a lot . I also would understand if maybe they usually had 2 first class carriages ( I don’t know if they do ) , took one off , so kept all the first class seats for those with first class tickets , but on a first come first served basis. But to have them all free , the whole journey , with lots of people - families coming back from holiday - who reserved seats for a long journey and lost them , standing and struggling - but then keep it empty and leave people standing , and actively turn people holding babies in arms away - I found this disgusting !

Just to add - this isn’t about me wanting to go in first class , we had seats , we were ok and I did offer my seat up too.

Tbf DH had this happen the opposite way round. He had a first class ticket but they let anyone in and he had to stand all the way back for a 2.5hr journey. Conductors just shrugged as didn’t want to have any confrontation…

Was it a Cross Country train by any chance? The 9 to 4 carriages thing has happened to me countless times and it annoys me so much. Every time the 9 carriages have all been there being dragged along but they haven't had enough crew to staff it. Which is bloody laughable when the result is that the 4 remaining carriages are so rammed that the staff they do have can't get down the train. The last time that happened I ended up boarding first class and standing in "their" carriage because I couldn't physically get on any other carriage as it was so rammed. I completely agree it should be declassified though. Standard train tickets are so expensive that I think all available space should be used. To be honest until they can guarantee most people a seat they should do away with first class carriages anyway.

I once paid for 1st class (because it was a weekend on a CrossCountry train & they are appalling). It was quiet until one station which made a connection with another line, and the train became full & standing. A group of about 15 lads invaded First Class, smoked/vaped, drank beer, shouted, sang, swore and generally insulted & intimidated passengers loudly & physically. They noticed me texting - I was texting the British Transport Police - and crowded round my seat, asking if I was calling the police.

I got a measly £20 refund for the difference between 1st Class & Standard (so they calculated).

And the British Transport Police were less use than a chocolate teapot (one could at least eat the melted chocolate). They didn't even enter the train when we stopped at the next station.

So 1st class is not a sanctuary, when people try to force their way in.

I once promoted an uprising on a train to the coast, many years ago. It was absolutely rammed and someone was sitting in my reserved seat and wouldn't move (blanked me) I got through the throng, found a guard who said "oh do go through to First Class Madam, it's almost empty". Went back to retrieve my case and on the way told people standing in the aisles and between carriages, including women with babies in arms and old people with walking aids, this fact. They followed me to First Class (which was indeed empty) and the guard didn't say a word.

People who have paid for tickets shouldn't have to stand for hours when there are available seats elsewhere.

This seems to be the running sentiment so this not aimed at the poster in particular who I have quoted.

The reasoning is ridiculous.

You’d rather people stand than sit if they haven’t paid?

I’m actually disgusted.

I usually travel first on long intercity services - declassification does happen sometimes and it is annoying as trying to get the compensation for the downgraded service out of the likes of EMR is a nightmare. However I am physically not able to stand for a long journey so its worth it.

In other circumstances it is at the discretion of the train manager to allow people to sit in first class. Some are kinder than others. I actually think that they need to make certain seats priority seats (some trains do but not all) and enforce the priority more firmly so a parent with a child in a sling gets to sit over a fit and healthy person scrolling their phone assiduously to avoid catching the eye of anyone who might want them to stand up.

Psychologically some people feel much better about themselves if they feel they have access to something 'exclusive'.

So there is a group of people who would not want a better railway service across the board - having the opportunity to pay for something other people can't afford is their psychological priority.

It's irrational but not unknown! However it is a minority.

I always thought you are paying to travel not guarantee a seat unless you are able to reserve one. If they do open up first class then the difference needs to be paid back to those who paid the full first class fare. Or if people are needing a seat can pay more so they can

YABU

In crazy packed trains I've gone and sat in first class. Never been asked to move by ticket inspectors on showing my non first class ticket.

I think they should definitely declassify in the circumstances you outline - trains cancelled or made shorter, so lots of people missed out on seat reservations they were expecting.

So if someone has to miss out, it’s better that people missed out on a very quiet first class than on having a seat at all (that was reserved).

It’s harder if it’s just a normal busy train, as you do book first class for peace and quiet, but surely having people sitting safely is a priority.

On some train lines they have a thing where you can pay a less expensive “standard premium” on the day if standard class turns out to be back, just for the seat and no food or anything included, and that works quite well if you’re happy to pay a small fee on the train.

But why should anyone have to pay to upgrade when the seats are free and there are massive delays , and their own reservations were cancelled ?

I get what you are saying and I don’t think that if you don’t have reservations and the train is busy , not first class is empty , I don’t think you should be able to sit there. I don’t think any person who has paid first class should be denied their seat because a standard ticket holder is there.

But I think in situations like this - when so many were affected and everything is crazy then actual human decency should come into it and people in first class wanting an empty carriage should not take priority over people standing for 2 hours plus when they booked seats .

Exactly. All regular users would end with increased fares.
It’s bad enough paying the crazy high regular peak time fares as it is. Reading to Paddington is a 23 minute ride. Its costs over £60 return at peak time and you are usually standing

But people book first class precisely because it isn’t usually full.
I just gave one example, another would be someone who had to work.
Obviously you take a gamble as to how empty the first class carriage will be when you book the ticket, but if the carriage was routinely filled with standard class ticket holders, or indeed routinely filled, people would stop paying for first class. This would impact the cost of running the service.

Then what ? What difference would it make to you ? In the circumstances they should have opened the carriage up instead of making people stand in overcrowded carriages when they had specifically reserved seats.

It might be train line specific we were on a delayed train out of London on Thursday. They put water bottles in the carriages as some had non working air con. They also declassified first class and explained about the delay repay encouraging everyone to apply

Yanbu. I pay for first class as my teen has autism and can't cope with a busy train. I use the DLA benefit for it.

Even a busy 1st class is calmer than a rammed standard carriage.

Why does someone who bought a full price first class ticket need a refubd just because they are sitting next to someone with a cheaper ticket? What difference does it make to them how much someone else paid for their ticket?

Not to derail (!) this thread but is that a Qatar airlines thing to ask other passengers before moving people into first? I travel every month with work in first class on United and noone has ever asked me if I'm ok with others being moved in. What happens if another passenger says no?

If you pay less for your ticket (standard class) then you know you are at higher probability of not getting a seat due to shortened trains / cancellations etc.

If you want a higher probability of getting a seat despite cancellations / different train formations etc, then pay the extra for first class tickets. Thats the point … and the slightly bigger seats and less passengers in the carriage overall.

its no different to paying more to have a bigger car, or fly business class and everyone knows the trains are unreliable so should plan for cancellations and changes.

This is exactly how I would feel. If there are some decent bargains on first class with my Disabled Rail Card, I will buy a first class ticket for long journeys. In fact, I have booked a first class ticket for next Saturday. This will give me the privilege of a quiet carriage with more space and the forward facing seat l prefer. I am older and travelling alone and will thoroughly enjoy the experience. While I would not mind a case like @boredsoscrollingonMNagain, I would object if people in general were put in first class carriages simply because the rail companies have not provided enough second class carriages. I am not a snob but if I have paid extra in order to enjoy a comfortable, quiet journey, I want to keep it that way.

This is exactly how I would feel. If there are some decent bargains on first class with my Disabled Rail Card, I will buy a first class ticket for long journeys. In fact, I have booked a first class ticket for next Saturday. This will give me the privilege of a quiet carriage with more space and the forward facing seat l prefer. I am older and travelling alone and will thoroughly enjoy the experience. While I would not mind a case like @boredsoscrollingonMNagain, I would object if people in general were put in first class carriages simply because the rail companies have not provided enough second class carriages. I am not a snob but if I have paid extra in order to enjoy a comfortable, quiet journey, I want to keep it that way.

In extreme cases where there is overcrowding/overheating to the extent that it’s a danger to health or safety then the train should be declassified, but first class passengers should get a full refund on their ticket and perhaps some compensation as they’re not getting the experience they paid for. Equally, they should be aware that it’s a possibility when they book their ticket.

I understand why first class is not opened as anyone who had booked that could then ask for a refund. Also if there is complimentary food/drink etc how are staff supposed to krep track. I pay the extra to travel first class for longer journeys as it is worth it for space and quiet