Am I being horrible or do I need to say no?

[onemoredress]

DS is 26 and autistic/adhd and lives a few streets away in a shared house, he lived with us until 2 years ago but we asked him to move out as he was straining our marriage, constant mess in the kitchen was causing arguments and he was with us 24/7 as he never went out other than to work, no gf and very few friends.

Since moving out he would turn up most nights unexpectedly and let himself in and sit with us until bedtime, this caused more arguments between me and his dad as he felt uncomfortable he would walk in any time he wanted so I kindly explained that it would be nice if he could let us know when he was coming so we were expecting him.

Now he calls on his way home from work and says would you like me to come and see you?
Of course I say yes, every time even if I would rather spend a quiet night with Dh but I don’t like to say no.

I admit I do feel it’s a bit of an intrusion to have him around so many nights a week but I don’t like to say no, Dh says I need to say no, he’s happy to say no, but if we have ever said no I feel really guilty and ds gets quite huffy so I like to keep the peace and don’t want him not to feel welcome.
We both agree it would be lovely to see him a couple of times a week for a couple of hours instead of him coming in most nights and then not leaving until we go to bed, he doesn’t understand social hints and has rejection sensitivity so if we tell him directly he gets offended.

I feel like whatever I do I will upset someone. It’s not that his dad doesn’t want to see him, he just doesn’t want him here all the time and when he comes home some nights and it’s still sunny outside so he buys some drinks for the garden and expects to chill out with just me and then ds calls and says he is on his way and he feels his evening plans go out the window because ds doesn’t drink and I don’t like to drink with him there so leave it for another time.

Is Dh right and I should say no so we can have some evenings just ourselves or is that cruel and unreasonable and he should be able to come over when ever he wants?

Our friends whose son was a home body and moved out bought him an unlimited cinema gift card and he has used it super well to forge a more independent life..definitely check what’s happening at the house share too

If he comes most nights it's not really unexpected.

Explain you are busy monday, wed and fri but he is welcome to dinner Tuesday and Thursday.

Evening are nice so a bit after dinner say you will walk him home. Then you and his dad are going for a walk.

Also there is no reason you cant sit in garden and drink. If ds doesnt like it he can go home

You might have to help him find some hobbies in the evening OP, what about a running club or a choir or something - what’s he interested in? He might just need extra help to make new friends and sort his own social life out.

Well, if you won't change your response to him I'm not sure what you want here.

I think it's a bit mean. Is he coming over for company? He can't really be if he is just watching videos on his phone? You could always say it's a bit loud and ask him to do it in another room. You could also say you're going to go to bed earlier so he leaves and you get some time to yourselves

As others have said, it seems like this situation calls for balance - for sometimes saying yes and sometimes saying no, or for having agreed visiting days where he doesn't need to ask and an expectation that he asks at other times.

It isn't horrible to say no. It is your life and you matter too. Your DH also presumably matters to you. If you always say yes to your son by default without checking with your DH first, and your DH always has to step back from his own ideas for how he wants to spend the evening as a result every single time, that shows a lack of respect for his time and his wishes. Saying to your son that you and DH want some evenings to yourselves to connect as a couple might be a good idea - it would emphasise the value this relationship has in its own right.

Even a couple of nights without your son a week might be enough for starters if he is currently coming round almost every single day. You don't need to 'cut him off' - of course you value his company and care about him and want to still be supportive as his mum, but this doesn't need to be an either / or situation.

Presumably when your son moved out, you hoped this would be an important step for him to start building his own life. If he spends every night with you, you aren't advancing this mission further. And you and your DH aren't always going to be there for him if he lives a good long life, so always seeing him might be the sort of kindness that adds up to inadvertent cruelty one day.

Much will depend on what your son could be doing when he isn't seeing you and your DH, and perhaps there is a way to build his confidence and range of ideas, ideally alongside him rather than this being something done 'to' him. I don't know whether he would be interested in a conversation like that. If the issue is that he is uncomfortable with his housemates, that needs exploring - anyone would move heaven and earth to stay away from home as much as possible if their housemates are truly awful or if difficult stuff has happened to impact those relationships. If it is more that your son can't think of anything else he wants to do, I wonder whether you could build some ideas together over time. Could he have a regular film night at the cinema or at home by himself or with his flatmates? Could he make an appointment with a social prescriber via his GP to find out what is going on locally? If he's autistic I appreciate that might manifest in ways that make it really tough for him to go into new situations and to meet new people, but he isn't alone in those struggles and there might well be support groups or valuable information locally. The fact that he wants to be with you suggests he does not want to be alone all the time and has some need for connection - if only he had more ways to satisfy this.

Crucially he would ideally be on board - for example with thinking about what he wishes his life could be like. There's a 'wheel of life' activity that you can download for free online that helps people reflect on how they feel about different areas of their lives and what they would like to grow or change.

It might well be that you've exhausted every option of course and that he's already turned down any and all ideas, or refused to explore them. If so that's fair enough. But it is his life, and yours is yours, and if you keep seeing him every night, he won't have any incentive to do anything differently. Ever. Which would be a shame for him if he missed out on the chance to expand his world, even a little, and even if very gently and at his own pace.

You’re not doing him any favours long-term having him around all the time. When he phones and asks if you want him to pop in, say “Yes, that would be nice. Come tomorrow/on Thursday as we’re busy tonight. We’ll expect you around 7pm.”

Gradually work towards a weekly pattern of visits, eg twice a week, that works for you.

He has no issue with his house mates, they don’t really have a communal space so they stay in their rooms when not cooking and I know he doesn’t like just sitting in his room as he never spent time in his room at home so it’s likely he just comes to get out of his room.

But this is just skirting round the issue, which is that this is a grown adult who doesn't need to be coming to visit mummy and daddy every single night.

Well, he needs to stop - and you and DH need to hold firm and tell him he's not welcome every single night.

Could he afford nicer accommodation, does he find being in his own difficult?

Just find a good list of reasons to say no that don't sound like rejection.
Not tonight son, dad and I are having a date dinner/movie date, we are free on Wednesday etc
Also might be worth encouraging him to find some hobbies of his own to fill that time if possible.

So when he rings tonight set the scene with, yes be lovely pop round for an hour but you have things to do. And after an hour prompt him to leave. Gradually do this a few times.

Then move to some like, on Thursday were busy. Give him advance notice and remind him in the run up. You can do this for a few weeks to gradually introduce a full night off.

You and DH need space. DC needs encouraging to make friends and not rely on you 100%>

Why don't you visit him @onemoredress? I think it's a heartbreaking predicament tbh you have my empathy it must be so hard for you .

You just need to be very clear about what is ok because he obviously can’t work it out for himself. Tell him which nights, how long he can stay and what is ok to do or not. If he’s not happy where he is he may need to look for a different living situation.

Yes he will appreciate the clarity. And probably stick to the new rules very rigidly in my experience 😅
Perhaps he would benefit from a hobby that gets him out in the evenings. Presuming he's in an urban area if he has housemates? There should be lots going on locally where he can find a third space. Meetup app is good.

Absolutely agree with this. As a SEN parent, I hope my child always finds comfort in my home and couldn’t imagine saying no to my child. Sounds like you have a DH problem… put your child first despite the age. Actually quite shocked you told them to move out if no other issues present and just for your own space tbh

If he calls you and asks if you'd like him to pop over, can you say 'yes but only until x time as we would like an early night as we are exhausted. Then he knows what to expect and has the time with you but also an agreed end time so hopefully he will not take offence?

Also a routine may be a good idea, he comes over Mon, wed and Friday evenings for example?

I get this adult son is 30 and living around the corner. He has a degree and a job and ND.

He has two friends from primary school who live with their parents and do not work at all about an hour drive away. Their parents do everything for them they are the same age and contribute nothing. They communicate by text but rarely meet up.

He lives a 5 minute walk away in his own flat. He was relying on us totally for his social life and anything else. Plus when he was coming round he was not cooking, cleaning, or having to do any buying of any food or any admin in his life or anything. To be honest, at times the regular coming over and expecting to be entertained or amused was and is quite difficult. We gradually started to say no. We told him set days. He does get invited to family stuff but it is very very one way with input etc

We are currently on holiday. We asked him if he wanted to come with us and he did. So far we had to get him up for the airport, help him pack and the travel was hard flight etc constant tics and jerks (we booked an empty seat next to him) on the plane etc He has been a superior know it all, out here and scrolling on his phone non stop. He sticks to us like glue, he struggles with social and emotional mannerisms eg laughing loudly inside a church at something random he found funny etc and to be honest it is not really a holiday for us. We are renting an air b and b and he has his own room and bathroom but it is hot here and I have to tell him to shower, to flush the toilet, to put deodorant on, to give me some peace as anything all conversations are dominated by his know it all attitude. He will fart continuously unless we say something or just dominate the evenings and mornings. It is frustrating as he won’t offer to contribute to anything or help. With ours we have to be blunt - give us an hour of space and go for a walk or something. Eg I cooked lunch yesterday and served it and he just got up and walked outside. I had to say no stop I’m not your maid. You wash and he said he would cook dinner and didn’t - literally nothing so DH and I cooked for ourselves he made toast. And to be honest I don’t want to supervise him doing it - he can cook and he was choosing to scroll and be lazy as ‘he’s on holiday’. He is rude about the food, culture, people and even the shower and accommodation.

However I’m proud that he is living independently and volunteering etc his uncle has never lived in his own and he is now 60 living with mum is now nearly 90. She looks after him. He has no friends no life and everything is organised by mum.

With ours a softly softly approach does NOT work and it never has. We have to say right we have just paid £200 for food transfer us £75 now please - right now. As he won’t offer. If we go out for a meal he is told - you buy the drinks we get the meals or whatever and we stick to it. His hygiene is grim and it frustrating. For example he pulled on our drive and hit my car it is dented. I told him it’s dented and we have cctv. He went outside to look at my dent and came in and said nothing - so I said Hey - did you see the dent when you went and looked. Yes he says. Ok I said what you going to do about it. I didn’t do it he says. Look I say you are on cctv doing it you need to sort it. He got stressed meltdown etc and now ignoring it hoping it will go away. So I will have to get quotes and give him the bill. But it is on me.

For ours we initially said when he moved out he could come over Tuesday Thursday and Sunday. Then we reduced to Wednesday and Sunday and now it is Wednesday evening between 7-9 pm and Sunday lunch if he leaves by 5 pm and we do sometimes tell him this Wednesday doesn’t work. Mine likes routine but they learn to deal with it when it isn’t. We accept him. We are trying to help him for when we aren’t here or when we aren’t going to well enough. To be honest when Mum dies (although I hope she doesn’t) my brother won’t be able to live alone and will have to go in sheltered housing but he is 200 miles away and we can’t help that much. But it is huge he is living on his own.

My own view is be blunt and firm about boundaries. As I said we said Tuesday Thursday and Sundays and then reduced it down. Look at local NAS activities. Ours volunteers with animals.

Carve out stuff for you eg we do history society, pub quiz, allotment and we have been firm he can not join us. We need our own lives.

Could you say we are busy Mon wed and Fri but would love to see you tues and Thurs? or similar.

Why are you scared of him huffing? I haven’t seen your previous threads but this one has been full of useful suggestions. Have a chat with DH and agree what you’re both happy with. Eg he comes after work on Monday then goes home to eat. Comes for dinner on Wednesday and leaves by 9 so you can wind down and get an early night. Then you go to see him at his place for an hour on Friday or every other Friday or whatever suits. Maybe more focussed time means you’ll be able to chat properly with him being on his phone. You’ll all know where you stand and what the plan is. You won’t be on edge waiting for a call.

Yes I totally appreciate this perspective and have relatives and a very close friend who are autistic and likely won't ever be able to move out of the family home. I agree that people sometimes have a need for a lot of support that is going to extend beyond childhood.

However I also have a counter-perspective. In my job (community mental health) I work with a lot of people who, through mental health challenges, neurodivergence and various other factors, have never left home, even into their sixties, or who have relied hugely on their parents to meet all of their emotional and practical needs. When these people lose their parents, or when their parents become too unwell to give them the support they're used to getting, it is then utterly devastating for the person. People are left so vulnerable. Some of them fall into self-neglect and risky situations. Others end up in care homes when this is frankly inappropriate and wrong, but it ends up being argued that it's the only way to keep them safe. And whilst there are actually some pretty good lovely care homes for younger people with various types of needs, these can also be terrible environments and places where people get deskilled even further.

There are some people in this world who are never going to be able to live remotely independent lives or do the sorts of things society expects of them in order to have a so-called normal life - paying bills, doing housework, choosing clothes, getting a job, having romantic relationships or friendships, being parents who are allowed to keep their children in their own care.

Then there are many many people who could do some or all of these things with the right level of support at the right time, and could thrive and live such amazing lives in their own way, even if they can't always jump through the expectation hoops or do everything in the way other people expect.

I think there is a terrible danger of people being pushed into the former category when they are in fact in the latter, and that is an awful injustice in my view.

I am also a community health professional and I do often see what you are describing however as her son has ASD he is likely more immature than his peers of his age, so may need a few more years to mature. Many young adults now live with parents until 30ish due to costs- I imagine OP’s son finds it very difficult to live in shared accommodation so is struggling hence returning home a lot. Maybe if OP took more time to support her son get appropriate accommodation she would not have this issue but as it reads she kicked her son out with autism to please her husband- I found this a difficult read personally but do take on your points.

Came on to say the same. I’d tell him you’re a couple and you need alone time to as part of working on your relationship, so some nights are date nights.
You should also encourage him to find his own interests. If you had set date nights he could look for a club or group he might like to try.