AIBU to think refusing treatment from non-white medical professionals should have consequences?

[MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack]

There has apparently been a significant rise in racism towards NHS staff, with a growing number of people refusing to allow non-white NHS staff to treat them. This is sad but not surprising given the shift in society as a whole towards people expressing their racism much more openly.

https://news.sky.com/story/nhs-staff-experiencing-unconscionable-levels-of-racist-abuse-survey-finds-13569575

I have always admired the commitment of NHS staff who treat all patients with care and compassion, even when those patients are rude and abusive. But if people are actually refusing to let certain staff provide treatment, surely there should be consequences for this?

AIBU to think that everyone has the right to refuse treatment if they so wish, but if a patient refuses treatment from a medical professional simply because they don't like the colour of that medical practitioner's skin, then they should then forfeit the right to receive that treatment on the NHS. So they can either go without or find the money to be treated privately by a medical professional of their choice?

There would need to be signs warning people of the consequences of their choices, of course, but if someone doesn't want a Black or Asian radiographer carry out their x-ray, then fine... they just don't get an x-ray.

Well said.

I think I'm right in understanding that you're making a distinction between people who request not to be treated by a person of a particular sex for personal reasons and people who request not to be treated by a person of a particular race for personal reasons?

And suggesting that one be actively disadvantaged in the way the other is not?

Unless you are also suggesting that any woman requesting same-sex care should also be denied "automatic right to treatment after refusing for [sexist] reasons"?

I disagree that that is justifiable.

I haven’t seen the OP suggest denying care - she’s saying racially abusing medical staff and demand an alternative practitioner on grounds of race is tantamount to refusal of treatment. To be honest I’d thought this was the position. Are you saying in your practice/clinic you’d supply a white doctor if one of your patients refused to see you? What if there was no white doctor?

I don’t need to make that distinction, because it exists in law and practice. Patients can request a practitioner of the same sex and effort will be made to accommodate the request. Bit it won’t always possible and it might take longer.

If you can't logically justify the distinction that you have been advocating for in this thread, I'd suggest it's not much of a position to hold.

If your position is that what is morally right is determined purely by whatever the law and practice is at any given time, you're going to find yourself changing your mind a lot and must have held some pretty unsavoury views over the years! 😉

So, what would you do if your sex of choice wasn't available in an emergency. Presumably if you'd take the first available medical professional regardless? Note I said emergency. In a clinic setting, hopefully, your sex of choice would be an option. Either way unless there was a very good reason you don't get to dictate the colour of someone's skin.

Well, for starters- I think your description of racially abusing staff is not quite the same as saying “I’d rather see a white/insert ethnicity Dr”- the latter is likely racism but not necessarily abusive in the sense of verbal or physical aggression which would possibly result in refusal of care. And denying care is what the OP suggests- you can wrap it up however you like as patient is refusing care, but it is refusing to provide an alternative HCP for that particular instance of care. It is not complete denial of all care forevermore.

As to what happens in practice is, as ever, more nuanced. I would say that the majority of patients aren’t so blatant as to come out with what is clearly racism e.g. “I’m not seeing that black/Asian/Chinese etc Dr, so get me a white one”. That simply isn’t what they say for the most part. It can be thinly veiled, I would grant you, but it can be hard to solely attribute to racism without getting into slightly grey areas. For example, they’ll clock another difference that is more palatable- “I’d rather see a doctor who is male/female”, for instance- the opposite of the doctor they want to avoid.

In any case, frankly, in cases where it is not blatant racism at play we don’t have the time or the inclination to dally about hang-wringing and trying to work out if we can justify refusing to let them see someone else. We know it’s going to be easier all round- especially for the Dr who gets to avoid an awkward consult- and get on with it. Of course, sometimes it’s not possible- e.g. there is no-one appropriate to move them to, would be the most common reason- and then we just tell the patient and they make a decision to take it or leave it.

I have just come back to this thread. I didn't think it could get any worse but it has. @MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack thank you for this thread. The covert and overt racism is off the scale.
Excuses like how the doctor or nurse communicate or how they speak English!! Jesus Christ how do people manage when they go abroad and get ill or have an accident!!
African doctor - Africa is a bloody continent NOT one country. The continent of Africa is made up of 54 countries FFS. The reason many African countries speak English is because of colonialism where people were forced to communicate in English.
Just imagine what 23% of the 867 who have replied to the poll are thinking when they are being treated in GP surgeries, clinics, hospitals etc.

Im sure sadly there is plenty of racism, but I do also wonder if in some areas this might be a backlash at the number of NHS specialty training posts (and other roles) going to staff recruited from overseas.

These roles tend to go to ethnic minorities simply becase medical wages in majority white countries (eg north america, europe & australia) are higher so people from there are not tempted by crap nhs pay.

Id rather a black/other minority doctor from uk, than a white one recruited from overseas, personally. The ones we have here we've educated at massive expensive so we should continue to train & hire them.

YABU for posting a brief news report about a study largely without context and extrapolating wildly. Your 'proposal' is ludicrous. It's almost as if you don't know how news media work.

Am more than impressed you managed to understand what that poster was saying and could reply!😀

Agree 100%, I've had medical staff who were brilliant and some who've been awful, including one nurse who I was frankly quite afraid of, unfortunate as she was the one assigned to me on a High Dependency Ward. She was a black nurse, I didn't complain about her because I think you get good and bad in all walks of life and I've also had white nurses who were not very good.

I don't suppose you recognise the racism within your own 'findings'. I am pretty certain that being condescending and patronising is not race-specific.

I think you can refuse to be treated by anyone surely? If you do you will surely wait to see someone else. If you verbally abuse anyone or express racist views in an attempt to upset them surely there are already laws that can be used against you as a consequence of your socially unacceptable behaviour.

Good post

@HadALittleBasket

I haven’t ’advocated’ for anything.

You can refuse treatment from any practitioner for any reason, some of which are lawful and for which attempts will be made to accommodate. A natural consequence of refusal, even for a lawful reason, is that there may be a delay or it may be impossible to treat you.

I’m using racially abusing staff to capture some of the examples in the story. I don’t consider ‘can I see a white doctor’ particularly edifying but it’s obviously not abusive.

I do agree it would likely be easier for all (including the ‘unwanted’ practitioner) to find an alternative person to see them. But as you say, often that is either not possible or has consequences for other patients. So in effect, you are forced to refuse (though I still say they are refusing).

Thinking about the radiography unit that I’ve been to a few times recently, all the radiographers were South Asian. The three men that dealt with me were Indian. There was one white woman radiographer there in one occasion. I had a procedure that took 40ish minutes. If I’d demanded the white woman did it she’d have had to push her patient back by that 40 minutes at least, and that’s if she was skilled in the particular process, and there were enough white people to assist. That would then push everyone’s appointment back and mean the last person of the day got cancelled. For anyone who thinks pelle should have the right to have their wishes met, how is that reasonable?

Absolutely not, skin colour is irrelevant.

I must admit that I probably would feel very stressed/nervous if language or a very heavy accent was ever a barrier during a medical emergency again.

Disgraceful way she was treated. She must wonder why she bothers with the job.

I think the poster is meaning people who are fluent in english..... I wont deny ive had appts for myself or children where I couldnt wholly understand them. They were for minor issues but I can see for more serious issues or if there options how this can be an issue.

Before you cry racism you need to know a few facts. There are some countries, where up until recently you could

• buy a medical diploma outright, by paying a bribe to a medical institution, without attending it
• pay your talented medical fellow student to sit your exams for you
• pay your medical tutor to pass you when you do not deserve it.

This plague of corruption was present not only in African countries, but in the former socialist countries, aka Eastern Europe, I am afraid.

So there could be genuine concerns about the quality of foreign personnel.

Home-wise, there is a widening participation programme in some medical schools, where they accept people from ethnic minorities and poorer postcodes, who do not have academic ability to enter medical profession competitively and they continue to med school.

So there could be genuine concerns about the quality of widening participation candidates.

We also know that proper checks are not always carried out.

This is today's news (he was from Egypt) -

Oldham surgeon struck off after wrongly connecting patient's organs - BBC News

And this case is old, but I still can't forget it - a pregnant woman with appendicitis was killed by a junior foreign surgeon, who removed her ovary and stitched her up - because a senior foreign surgeon - Babatunde Coker - went home for a nap. Yes, for real, he went home for a nap.

Pregnant woman dies after ovary removed by mistake

And a hepatitis-positive surgeon from Pakistan infecting patients in Scotland

Surgeon infects heart patient with hepatitis | The Herald

What “valid reason” is there to not want a HCP of a particular ethnicity.

What if a HCP of their preferred ethnicity is not available and they refuse care until one is?

How much bending over backwards would you expect in this regard (especially in an emergency?)

I mean it’s not “crying racism” it point out that race and nationality are two different things