AIBU to think a revealing wedding dress seemed unsuitable for church?

[Evino]

Recently DH and I were invited to a wedding in Italy, it was held in a cathedral/Duomo technically, but one of the much smaller ones, in the south.
Obviously it being a church wedding we ensured both of us and our teenage daughters were modest, shoulders covered etc.

However the Bride, had an admittedly gorgeous, but I’d say … unexpected dress for the day. With a deep V open back (and the rest of the back was lace so essentially completely exposed), no veil, spaghetti straps and a fairly deep (though not revealing) cowl neckline.

It really surprised me this was seen as an appropriate dress for a church, especially one of significance. I’m not saying the dress wasn’t beautiful, it was! And I wouldn’t say she actually looked particularly provocative, I’d have just thought it would fall outside the modesty standards.

Have Catholic Churches really loosened the grip on what is seen as a modest? AIBU to be shocked that this was allowed and think it’s not an entirely appropriate choice?

So just one example…

There was a post the other day from someone upset at her father’s funeral that so many people had turned up in T-shirts and trainers.
Of course, some people said ‘it didn’t matter’ but plenty sympathised and thought it disrespectful.

On the other hand, when I meet my friends for lunch etcetera, we always make sure we look clean and tidy. If someone turned up in ripped, dirty clothes, it would seem as though something was definitely up. I think that’s normal.

I’m going to clarify as I feel like this has somehow ended up a conversation about how people dress and what that says about them.

The dress was not immodest by a general wedding standard; anywhere else it would have only registered as elegant, well made and refined. The bride did not look provocative or sexual I stated this in my opening post.

My question was not about whether it was an appropriate wedding dress in general, it was beautiful, elegant, and had a very traditional silhouette.

I am only familiar with Catholicism very loosely, my experience in other Italian churches was knees and shoulders covered so I was surprised to see that wasn’t the case and didn’t feel at first it was appropriate for the venue, I was clearly wrong, it was hot and humid, we were in Sicily.

This isn’t about morals or what someone wears says about them as in this case all it would say is, elegant, refined and maybe quietly sensual!

I still don't understand why it matters though.

Of course, I know that some people get hung up about this kind of thing, I just don't understand why.

I didn't comment on the funeral thread, but it's a really good example. If someone has made an effort to show up for a funeral to support the family/pay their respects to the deceased, why would anyone care if they were wearing joggers? At my mum's funeral, I was genuinely grateful to those who attended simply for turning up - that meant something. I didn't even notice what they were wearing. I don't get why some people feel it's important.

If it's about respect, surely just showing up at the funeral is a mark of respect?

It just seems shallow and superficial to me to worry about these things.

Being clean is a different conversation altogether. Hygiene is important. But choice of clothing? Not so much.

I am not sure if you’re being obtuse deliberately or you really do not grasp how one presents themselves and how that is perceived,

becayde I’d assume every human, from young child hood on, when they dress for school or play, unless nd. Fully understands clothes choices and fhe impact it has in how you’re perceived.

from turning up in a barely there mini skirt and crop top to work in a corporate office, to someone’s wedding in some worn joggers with holes. As humans how we present ourselves gives the first impression that people read into. Dressing appropriately for the occasion has always been the case, across history.

i think in balance you’re being deliberately obtuse, but do correct me if this is yoire nd and don’t understand this.

@MixedBouquets Ha ha ! You can't just get married in a Catholic church especially in Italy because you like the architecture. You can't hire it as a pretty venue you know. By choosing there with a priest to do the ceremony you are committing a lot more than with a registrar . A whole Catholic Mass, references to keeping Catholic values and raising possible children in the Catholic faith also . So yes , you absolutely have to be a willingly religious person . You can't just cross your fingers during the religious bits 😁.

I don't think I'm being obtuse, and of course I understand that others care about this kind of thing. Consequently, I tend to dress in accordance with social expectations, though I think for an occasion like my own wedding, I would prioritise what I would like to wear instead!

I understand the fact that people do judge others by their appearance. I just find it hard to understand why people care so much. Wouldn't it make more sense to judge people by their behaviour instead?

"Appropriate for the occasion" has obviously had huge variance across eras and cultures. The corporate office wear you consider appropriate now would have been scandalous two centuries ago. Even now, what's considered appropriate in one corporate office is not the same across the board.

"Appropriate" is not a fixed, objective value. It's permanently in flux, and a lot of that is down to people deliberately pushing at its limits. A lot of that is with specifically feminist or liberal values in mind, which I'm sure you're thankful for unless you hanker after the days of being suffocated in corsets?

You place undue importance on how one is perceived by others. Other people will be judgmental whatever you do (this thread is evidence). If their perception of you is negative, that is their problem unless you specifically need them to have a good impression of you (not the case in this situation with the bride and the OP).

I don’t place undue importance, I’m a stranger taking part in a chat, you can’t judge me on something you know nothing about, not even my words here indicated that, I was explaining to the poster who is oddly repeatedly asking why people “care”

do I care, yes in as much as I won’t go into my office in a pair of short shorts. I won’t go to soft play in a sequined ball gown . I won’t go to a friends wedding in a pair of old joggers. I won’t go to Tesco in my pyjamas.

if that’s placing undue importance, then colour me in in unduly importance,

Not Italy, but when visiting an RC church in Malta in a sleeveless dress I was immediately pounced by what was probably a churchwarden and told to cover my shoulders with the shawl he handed to me.

I don't think @MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack is being in the least obtuse. I agree with her. You sound self-conscious about your self-presentation and hyper-vigilant about how you are perceived, because you are afraid of your self-presentation counting against you. Your annoyance that other people aren't similarly concerned says more about you and your fear of the judgement of those with whom you choose to surround yourself.

A corporate office has a dresscode. Most of life is considerably more flexible. The same person dresses entirely differently depending on what they're doing, and some of the most powerful people in the world stick to a single 'uniform', often not a particularly formal one -- Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Angela Merkel. The richest man I know only ever wears shorts, a polo shirt and Crocs. The only time I ever saw him in a suit was at his daughter's wedding. Mn loves a tale of the duke who dresses like a tramp. Funeral and wedding norms differ markedly from place to place. The OP on the funeral thread complaining about the casual dress of fellow-mourners was clearly just mourning her dad and focusing on kvetching about something to get through a difficult day.

You can wear what you want! This thread is not about the clothing choices you make - it's about judging the clothing choices of other people, which don't affect you. In the specific case in the OP it's judging a bride for wearing a wedding dress.

When we were in Berlin, we went into the cathedral on a whim and the warden (if that was her position) scolded my daughter for having bare shoulders. 'Not suitable for visiting God's house', she said to us in German. She let us in, but my daughter muttered under her breath that she didn't think God would have any issue with her shoulders.

I think you’ve partially explained it by saying you didn’t notice what people were wearing. That’s why it doesn't ‘matter’ to you.

Personally, I’m at best average on noticing people’s clothes, but I’m strong on how they’re generally feeling. Some people don’t notice that at all. I’m very interested in people. So for me, a person’s dress gives extra information about them in a particular situation eg are they nervous/ relaxed/ want to impress, whatever. That why dress ‘matters’. Of course if you genuinely do not care what impression you’re making, that’s another story . 🤔

The second strand is that people often wish to show respect for the culture of a foreign country. It’s only really contentious in a religious situation. This respect helps build trust and social confidence. Some styles of dressing can be truly shocking and offensive to some cultures. That’s why it ‘matters’.

Personally, if I were going to a wedding in another country I would go to a lot of trouble to establish what was considered respectful and follow the guidelines. Others might feel the bride/ groom are paying so they can dictate rules. I wouldn’t feel like that.

My daughter got wed wearing a Maggie Sottero dress . Think it was called ‘Antonia’ it has full length lace sleeves - and is backless with a low neckline ( you couldn’t wear a bra there were built in modesty cups )
Gorgeous dress but I suppose your post has made me think it was quite revealing for a full Catholic Church wedding.
No one commented though .

I would argue the opposite - not that it doesn't matter to me because I don't notice, but I don't notice because it doesn't matter to me. I see it, but it doesn't register because I don't find it important.

I would notice and find it important if someone presented very differently from how they normally would, because that might suggest that something unusual was going on for someone. And I would find that important. Otherwise my brain just filters out the info as trivial.

And yes, of course most of us will try to respect cultural norms and expectations because we know that people put a curious amount of emphasis on these things. I do make an effort to dress "appropriately" myself because I recognise that this matters to some people - disproportionately, from my perspective.

But taking care myself to dress in a way that won't offend others is totally different to judging other people for what they have chosen to wear. That's not really any of my business, and when others are judgemental about this kind of thing, I find them shallow. I can't get my head around why it bothers them so much.

Exactly.

So a lot of it is down to semantics. In my book, I would say you have just shown that you do feel that clothes matter.
It depends on what you mean by ‘judge’. I judge people’s clothing in that it gives me information helping me to understand a person better. No way does that mean I think they’re a bad person if I don’t like their choice of clothing.
Unfortunately, there’s a lot of politics in this.
A while ago, there was a post from someone concerning to see very young teenage girls walking round a shopping centre wearing extra revealing clothes. She feared they were unwittingly inviting unpleasant attention. She got a fair bit of attacks from posters saying the girls’ freedom should not be restricted etc.
In my mind it does matter if girls, who may not understand the interpretation others put on their dress, unwittingly lay themselves open to danger.
That issue is at the heart of much of the debate on clothing.
Personally, I’d rather be aware of the signals I might give off eg with a super expensive watch, rather than indulge my ‘right to choose.’ and have my ( imaginary) watch stolen.

You specifically said I placed undue importance on it.i was responding to that.

There's some very nasty posts on this thread.

You think it's important to help young girls understand how others might interpret what they wear, because you consider that they are unwittingly putting themselves at risk/"inviting" unwanted attention.

I think that's victim blaming and I would far rather that we focus on teaching boys and men not to think that certain types of clothing makes girls and women fair game. I have been sexually assaulted when dressed very conservatively. Ultimately, predatory men will behave in a predatory manner regardless of what girls and women wear.

And no, while I might notice unexpected changes in individuals, I genuinely don't think clothes are important. You do, and you are entitled to your opinion, but please don't try to tell me what I think.

They probably kept their thoughts to themselves.

I’m not telling you what you think, Mrs B.
I’m not victim blaming.
If it was my daughter, I would like to keep her safe.
I’m not into political rhetoric and the rest of the works. However, as always, I do value manners.

I have recently been to a catholic Sunday mass in Italy and did note that they still have shawls for women and older girls to cover their shoulders or tie round waist if had short shorts or mini on. This included sleeveless blouses. My DD was confirmed in Catholic Church this year UK & we revived an email reminding us that for the young people being confirmed & their sponsors shoulders had to be cover and dress length to at least just above the knees!

So if your daughter went out in something a bit skimpy and she was assaulted or attacked, would you feel that she could have prevented this by dressing differently? Would you feel that she had invited the attack?

Sorry, but I disagree.

NO I WOULD NOT!

PLEASE DO’NT TELL ME WHAT I’M THINKING!