India – loved it, but I came back feeling so violated.

[LondonLass40]

Just back from the Golden Triangle with my husband (43) and 12yr daughter. Stunning forts, incredible food ( lucky no Delhi belly 😀) amazing history is genuinely breathtaking.

But I’m struggling to process the darker side.

One afternoon in Delhi, my husband stayed at the hotel. I took my daughter to a busy market near cannaught place in broad daylight, crowded. A man walked past and grabbed my breast. Right in front of my daughter. He just kept walking. I froze. My poor girl kept asking why he touched Mummy.

Then there was the constant selfie nonsense when my husband was there and men lining up, putting their arms around me, getting too close while my husband stood there awkwardly not knowing what to do.

And the worst part was at the Red Fort queue. This guy kept pushing into me from behind – clearly not an accident. I turned around and shouted at him. He didn't run, didn't even look embarrassed , he just walked away ignoring me like I was invisible. I spoke to a security guard who just pretend to do something and did absolutely nothing.

I know these issues aren't isolated to India and this could happen in London too. But this was so blatant, so frequent, so relentless that I simply cannot ignore it. I've been to so many tourist destinations around the world and have never experienced harassment on this scale. It felt inescapable.

I don't know – does this only happen to Western women? I'm sure men like this do the same to Indian women too. How on earth do they deal with this every single day? I honestly don't think I'd go back.

My daughter and I went to Turkey and that was a bloody eye-opener
The personal trainer in the gym ended up getting sacked after we finally had enough of him literally pushing me out of the way to get to my 20-year-old to assist her with her gym work basically feeling her arse and then threatened her on Instagram and said that she made him angry because she didn’t want to go on a date with him
I’m not saying what do you expect, but we will definitely be prepared next time

As I said in another post I’ve not been to India so this isn’t a comment on India specifically but rather a comment on Britain compared to other places.

I’ve had some deeply unpleasant experiences with men here in the U.K.. I don’t know any of my female friends who’ve not been at least groped, many worse. Rape and misogyny is undoubtedly present here.

It still pales in comparison to the way women are treated in my own culture. Actually, it’s just not at all comparable. The misogyny and violence is insidious and pervades into every sphere of your life as a woman. I really don’t think I have the words to emphasise this enough. The thing is I don’t even think my culture is the worst of the bunch for treatment of women. But as I said in my last post, I thank my lucky stars I ended up in Britain.

Probably trying not to get involved in a physical confrontation with the locals where he’d be outnumbered and get no help, and if the local police arrived would probably blame him and he’d end up in prison until the family paid the appropriate bribes.

When I tried to get statistics on sexual assaults in train carriage toilets from British Transport Police in the last 10 years, they could only state they had nearly 10,000 reports in carriages - they couldn’t break it down to location.

I feel the same way. I had a great experience travelling in India with groups of women and experienced some staring, and definitely attempts to scam us, but nothing like others have described. The people were amazing, and in fact a family we’d met in passing through a work connection of my sister’s, ended up taking us in when my sister ended up hospitalised with gastroenteritis. Their kindness was incredible.

In contrast during the 90s/2000s in the uk I was groped in nightclubs, random men approaching to put their arms around me, older men trying to kiss me when I was a teen, propositioned by my male manager in two different workplaces, asked for sex by a boyfriend’s friend…

I don’t say any of this to minimise what op or anyone else experienced - I completely believe it and that women in India live with this risk. But it’s wrong to suggest India is inherently dangerous and that women are equal in our country. I’d love to go back to India.

I use London public transport daily. As does DD. Well aware of the safety, but I don't agree unpleasant incidents never happen.

Not all public transport in India is segregated. The new Bangalore Metro is not.

I didn’t say unpleasant incidents never happen.

I have lived in South America for quite long intervals in my life (not always in the same country though) and one common jape was to come up from behind, grab your boob or bum and then run off. Another, which has been constant, is to feeling something peculiar happening while you're sitting or standing on a crowded bus or metro, look down and see someone's erection rubbing against you, the perpetrator with a cheeky grin on his face. Where I'm living at the moment, a law has been passed criminalising these practices, and warning signs about the penalties up on public transport: we can only hope it does the trick.

Much of my time there was spent when I was young, reckless and took risks I would never take now, but I remember walking with a male friend at dusk along a street in Mexico City, and a car drew up, paused where we were, and a woman with a very unpleasant face looked at me, debated something with the male driver: then they spotted my companion walking a few feet ahead of me and drove off. I knew that, if I had been walking down that street solo, they would have hauled me in that car and driven away with me: kidnapping and trafficking is a very real threat.

This is before we even begin to get on to statistics such as, in the country I'm living in now, 718 femicides were recorded in the first six months of last year - that is, 4 women murdered per day - I don't know about even recorded and reported cases of rape or child prostitution, but I attended an event which featured a large group of female prisoners, all from the very poorest areas, at the bottom of the social pile: all of them, without exception, had been raped in their infancy or teenage years, often by a relative, of course.

Look at British Transport Police website. They are good at reporting details and trying to prosecute people. I am grateful for that as it’s difficult to get any sort of data.

Africa is different, there are creeps of course and you avoid war and civil disorder, generally it's as safe as Europe. I met 2 French women in Zambia, they were cycling from Nairobi to Capetown, no problems, everyone is very friendly, at night they they go to the village school and ask to camp, they got offered food and a guard for the night, and on to the next night stop.

Can you imagine doing that in Europe

This 100%

A Spanish influencer was gang-raped in front of her husband there.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-68444993

Anyone else taken aback at how plainly nasty the responses on this thread are? Not all of them, but enough to leave me wondering WTF? I know the internet is a horrible place but always hold out hope that MN will be different.

Please don’t bother jumping on to say I’m naive/stupid/misguided/whatever. I’m immune to the unpleasantness.

I was going to say the same. I was groped by a taxi driver in Greece about 20 years ago. They prey on intoxicated females too.

It was 20 years ago....

Except that many women - including the op - on here have explicitly said they were wearing “suitable” clothing that completely covered them up and they were still assaulted. Don’t patronise women by telling them they should “give some thought to what they plan to wear”, as if they didn’t, because you’re of course the only person who would think of it, and everyone else, including all the pp on here were wearing hardly any clothes and were basically asking for it because they never ever thought about not wearing the tiny shorts that they weren’t wearing. So, no, it didn’t “maximise their chances of enjoying their trip”. All this faux concern when you basically just said “…not because it would be their fault if they were wearing short shorts and got assaulted…BUT…”. Let me repeat, it makes no difference what a woman is wearing. If a woman is going to be assaulted then the man is going to assault her regardless of what she’s wearing. Of course it’s always right to respect and abide by the culture/rules of the country you are in and to dress appropriately but (and this is how you use a but without victim blaming) that is a separate issue to being sexually assaulted or raped. Dressing conservatively in any country where men treat women like this does absolutely nothing to prevent men from sexually abusing women.
Do not conflate the two. You were victim blaming. And also completely ignoring all the women posting who have all said they were completely covered when it happened.

See the same people who are like "I'd never go there the men are horrible, are the same ones who want open borders"

I have a counterpoint that in the uk British Indian Hindus tend to actually be quite nice, integrated, highly educated and earning well. That's because though in the past the immigration system selected the best

I have not been since 2016 but the only negative experience I had was a child hitting me on the bottom! I screamed in shock and a man started to chase him!

The selfies are a lot and you do learn to put in place firm boundaries. However when I was asked for selfies no one touched me.

I do wonder if my husband being 6ft 4 may have influenced our experience somewhat!

And, exactly what has that got to do with anything?
If you'd seen my posts my frame of reference is i had no hassle in India last year but was sexually assaulted in Greece. Does it matter it was 20 years ago or yesterday, no. I'm sharing an experience with another poster.

This is awful and I’m so sorry this happened to you and even more so that no one helped you. And to all those saying this wouldn’t have happened in London, an unknown man once masturbated beside me on a train on a summer evening and only missed me because I moved, I’ve also had my breast grabbed by a guy in broad daylight, and my crotch grabbed on a first date so it happens in the UK too. It’s horrific.

You can not take your experience and expect others to make decisions on it. Is absolutely ridiculous. If I went to India, had a good experience why should I not love it? Of course things happen to people but this is a case in every country that you might visit and experiences differ from person to person, but how long is a piece of string?! We are allowed to love or hate a country as we please and no, we are not strange for it!

There are issues in the UK and in Europe but all the data says that you're much safer the vast majority of European cities than India

Of course it matters. Are you saying you dont think Greek mindsets have evolved in the past two decades?

I think we are suicidal idiots to disregard the differenced in behaviour in countries around the world. Some cultures want women covered from head to toe, bought and sold from childhood, and allowed out only when escorted by a man. They punish women for being raped, or speaking in public, or showing their hair.

Other cultures don’t. For god’s sake stop minimising the strengths of living in the uk, on a matter of principle. Yes, we have sex criminals here too. No, it’s isn’t an accepted part of life any longer. Just something we haven’t finished rooting out.
Yes, well educated women in nice areas of India do very well. No, not all women there have the same opportunities.

A friend just came back from Egypt frustrated that her 12 yr old daughter was being approached and she was being offered camels for her.

If you stay in the resorts, you are likely safer.

I loved Egypt and Turkey. But I am not white, which makes a big difference.