India – loved it, but I came back feeling so violated.

[LondonLass40]

Just back from the Golden Triangle with my husband (43) and 12yr daughter. Stunning forts, incredible food ( lucky no Delhi belly 😀) amazing history is genuinely breathtaking.

But I’m struggling to process the darker side.

One afternoon in Delhi, my husband stayed at the hotel. I took my daughter to a busy market near cannaught place in broad daylight, crowded. A man walked past and grabbed my breast. Right in front of my daughter. He just kept walking. I froze. My poor girl kept asking why he touched Mummy.

Then there was the constant selfie nonsense when my husband was there and men lining up, putting their arms around me, getting too close while my husband stood there awkwardly not knowing what to do.

And the worst part was at the Red Fort queue. This guy kept pushing into me from behind – clearly not an accident. I turned around and shouted at him. He didn't run, didn't even look embarrassed , he just walked away ignoring me like I was invisible. I spoke to a security guard who just pretend to do something and did absolutely nothing.

I know these issues aren't isolated to India and this could happen in London too. But this was so blatant, so frequent, so relentless that I simply cannot ignore it. I've been to so many tourist destinations around the world and have never experienced harassment on this scale. It felt inescapable.

I don't know – does this only happen to Western women? I'm sure men like this do the same to Indian women too. How on earth do they deal with this every single day? I honestly don't think I'd go back.

Unless people have actually visited places like India or other countries with huge cultural differences in their attitudes to women they will never understand how truly abysmal they treat women.

Define norm...

Turkey (I guess that's partly Middle Eastern partly European technically) is a really lovely country with great people. But there are also issues with swxual harassment within places like Istanbul. That doesn't make it "the norm" in the sense that all Turkish people think this is Ok at all. But creepy Turkish men exist. I know someone who is Polish and had a very difficult time there because the assumption was that Polish/Russian women were prostitutes. Worse, the actual brothel area in Istanbul is very old and very accepted. A lot of the women working in this industry are from Eastern Europe and a lot of them are tricked into coming into Turkey for cleaning jobsnetc and then held prisoner by criminal gangs. The police are quite corrupt in that regard and not only turn a blind eye but actively assist the traffickers. Hence often very young women are held captive forced to have sex all day everyday sometimes several an hour. Usually there is an idea they have acrued a debt to the traffickers but this debt is never paid of. The rate of sex worker usage amongst Turkish men is quite high and it appears to be quite accepted. I don't think any of them are concerned about "groping" or "harassing" the women they pay for.

In other parts of the ME, including the Gulf States and places like Lebanon workers from overseas, often Africa, are at huge risk of sexual exploitation with little recourse if they are raped by their employer. In some cases race plays a part because black Africans are seen as less worthy than Arabs by some of the locals. In the Gulf States maids that are raped/pregnant can also be punished for adultery. Overall the treatment of a lowly paid foreigner of maid status is different to the treatment of women deemed deserving of respect.

Note that sex tourism and the use of sex trafficked women by gross men also happens in Europe. Lots of British men on stag dos in Amsterdam for example. And I don't think they are any more concerned than Turkish men about the willingness of the women working. And the film Whistleblower (horrific) details the sexual exploitation of mostly Romanian children by private security workers in Bosnia. Most of the men were from Canada. This isn't just a"Muslim man" thing. But the disbelief of "Muslims in the Middle East wouldn't act like that, it's not part of our culture" is a problem because actually almost all cultures have people they deem less worthy of protection than others. Some countries might have higher rates of sexual violence for sure. But a Middle Eastern Muslim, or a British person saying "how shocking Indian culture is. Our men wouldn't do such a thing and if they did other people would censure them for sure" are missing the fact that in some contexts nice family men would indeed harass women (and worse) and that this can be normalised by the people around them. You wouldn't necessarily notice this, if you were deemed the type of woman it's not OK to assault. Saying it's against Muslim religious laws (or British culture) doesn't mean that much.in itself.

OP whilst what happened to you in India wasn’t your fault it’s sad that you actively chose to put your DD in harms way by taking her out alone to a busy area. I hope she is okay now after what she witnessed.

And we’re importing them here!
Yeah right our Government had our backs!

Will it take us women to wear black diaphanous garbs for protection ?

Street harassment of the type described by OP is indeed much more ‘normal’ in parts of India, and is a very well known issue.

That doesn’t mean that other countries don’t have issues with sexual exploitation, or that what happened to OP couldn’t happen elsewhere. Of course it could, but it’s much more likely to occur in India.

I visited India when I was 21 with female friends from University, I am in my 50s now and I’m saddened to hear that this still happens . We were so violated the entire time that I would never set foot again .

Yes, but it was part of a long chain of quotes where someone said that Muslim culture (as per the Middle East) didn't allow treating women like that. My point was that it could in some circumstances though that wasn't limited to Muslim culture.
I agree that street harassment in India or say Egypt is worse, on the whole, than Europe and the Middle East. But it also depends on who you are/what you look like. A Polish friend of mine got very badly harassed/hit on in Turkey (not near the red light district) because men made assumptions about her they didn't make about me. Parts of Istanbul absolutely can have a serious harassment problem, though agree it probably isn't, in the worst places, as bad as the worst parts of India. I see your point about sexual exploitation being different. But the point is, someone who harassed a sex worker is still harassing a woman. Just as if a man in India might be harassing women who look/dress a certain way but not all women. It's still harassment not a different category of thing.

After reading this thread, I see the common denominator is that it is always men harassing women. The problem is men.

Do men complain about women making them feel uncomfortable or trying to assault them.

This thread also reminded me, when I was growing up in the London suburbs in the 80's and so many girls at my secondary school were flashed at. We had a pervert teacher, another abused by a hrandad, another by a male cousin the list goes on when I think about it.

The problem is men.

All around the world, some bad, some worse.

Sorry, I should have made it clear I was talking about myself. I realise I worded it completely wrong.

Exactly. A pit in some areas .

I went to India many years ago - but it was with a large group . I was never on my own & ‘chaperoned’ at all times. It’s not safe to be on your own there as a woman / child.
I really can’t believe that you went around a busy place with your daughter in Delhi!
Surely you should have known the cultural differences there?

This is what I took from this also 😂😂

I personally wouldn’t go out in an area without someone else present especially while children are there. You are right in how you feeling and I wouldn’t go back either but in future I wouldn’t go anywhere without your partner and I’d also just keep saying no and moving if people are touching you inappropriate

I think the poster who adked what she was wearing has a point. If you go to a mysoginist country wear long floaty clothesvthat cover everything.
These cultures are victim blamy ...there is no excuse at all but it may help.
I have to say i went to Morocco as a 19 year old blond and the men were lovely to me. Very respectful. I only felt perved at once and he was a much older man.He just stared...no groping.

These countries are also corrupt, corrupt politics etc and the Gov allows unlimited numbers into the U.K.

I haven't visited but I've read plenty and feel I understand. I understand enough to have no wish to go there, anyway.

I agree that the Golden Triangle is wonderful but I can’t believe that you went out to a market with your daughter on your own. DD and I have done two trips to India with a reputable company and each time it was made quite clear to us that we should stay in the hotels and only go out on the coach. I know this means that we were in a bubble but it also meant that we stayed safe. (We were able to walk around in Shimla). Having read so much about the abuse and rape of women (locals and Western) DD and I had agreed before we went that we would not go out on our own even by taxi to a restaurant. Of course women should be able to walk anywhere freely but that simply is not the case in India. I am sorry you had that experience but please don’t let it spoil yourmemories of what I know was a wonderful holiday. I would like to add that in Vietnam and Cambodia we could walk around safely at night on our own as we could in Uzbekistan.

There are, but let's not pander to the right wing campaign which implies London is an unsafe hell hole either or compare it to Delhi in any way, shape or form.

One time my leg was groped by an old man on the Paris metro while I was sitting next to DH. I was constantly catcalled in Rome when with DH. DDs didn't get this kind of hassle when we were in France and Italy recently, so it seems to have got a bit better.

This. DH went backpacking around in India 30 years ago and got endlessly hassled in some places. We would go to India but very carefully and choosily. Also, it's massive. DH generally preferred southern India.

🤣🤣🤣 @desperatemum1234 telling it like it is!

Omg! The awful men put op’s daughter in harm’s way

When younger I backpacked solo all over the world. I’ve been to India twice.
India remains the only country where I have been physically assaulted and openly propositioned.
They are proud people and I always make a point of being vocal online about their appalling reputation for assaulting women. They need to know they have a problem.

I spent a year in India in my early 20s and experienced the same things as so many posters on this thread.

Got flashed several times a week, had someone walk up to me masturbating on a busy street right near a policeman who ignored me when I alerted him etc etc etc…

I got good at spotting the people who just seem to ‘accidentally’ wander into your space and also got good at just happening to swing my bag when they got too close.

I’ve lived and traveled in many places and have never experienced anything like the harassment in India.

Anyone considering a holiday there. Go to Sri Lanka instead! Beautiful country and wonderful people. No groups of men standing and staring in packs.

My father moved us away a place like that for a very good reason. Western men can rape too, but it just would not happen that a woman be attacked on a highstreet in the middle of the day and every single man would join in or ignore it. Someone would try to stop it or help.

It is awful. It should not happen. But it does regularly and is culturally acceptable, especially to do it to western women.

I am sorry it happened to you and everyone else. But it does feel a bit sometimes like people going into a wolves den, then complaining about being bitten.

There was that awful case recently of those young girls in Pakistan going to a festival and being assaulted by hundreds of men, with not one trying to help them.

Do western women just not believe us when we tell them what it is really like? It is so avoidable. Don't go there, and for the love of god don't let your young daughters go anywhere where women are treated worse than animals.

And don't believe those 'Oh I went there and it was so ethnically wonderful' posts I see sometimes. Those women were either accompanied by a male, or got very very lucky.