India – loved it, but I came back feeling so violated.

[LondonLass40]

Just back from the Golden Triangle with my husband (43) and 12yr daughter. Stunning forts, incredible food ( lucky no Delhi belly 😀) amazing history is genuinely breathtaking.

But I’m struggling to process the darker side.

One afternoon in Delhi, my husband stayed at the hotel. I took my daughter to a busy market near cannaught place in broad daylight, crowded. A man walked past and grabbed my breast. Right in front of my daughter. He just kept walking. I froze. My poor girl kept asking why he touched Mummy.

Then there was the constant selfie nonsense when my husband was there and men lining up, putting their arms around me, getting too close while my husband stood there awkwardly not knowing what to do.

And the worst part was at the Red Fort queue. This guy kept pushing into me from behind – clearly not an accident. I turned around and shouted at him. He didn't run, didn't even look embarrassed , he just walked away ignoring me like I was invisible. I spoke to a security guard who just pretend to do something and did absolutely nothing.

I know these issues aren't isolated to India and this could happen in London too. But this was so blatant, so frequent, so relentless that I simply cannot ignore it. I've been to so many tourist destinations around the world and have never experienced harassment on this scale. It felt inescapable.

I don't know – does this only happen to Western women? I'm sure men like this do the same to Indian women too. How on earth do they deal with this every single day? I honestly don't think I'd go back.

As always with these things it depends for whom... I would feel safe walking around the main cities of Bulgaria even quite late at night by myself (at least where there's nightlife) as a woman in her twenties or thirties and as a tourist. But Bulgaria, like a lot of former communist countries, also experienced high levels of poverty in the 90s and 2000s as it recovered from said communism. And a larger influx of foreign tourism than before. And a rise in crime/criminal gangs. It was worst in Romania, but all the Eastern bloc countries experienced sex trafficking and child sex trafficking during that period. As the economic conditions improved and women were less desperate the demand was still there. So there is quite a problem of women (and children) in Ukraine, Romania and even Bulgaria being tricked or forced to work in brothels there, or in Berlin or Amsterdam or Istanbul. It's really grim and hidden. But it wouldnt affect my personal safety as a tourist. It also isn't fair if that's what Eastern Europe is known for, and the stereotype of the "sexy Eastern-European woman" has a darker side which comes from that I think. Living in Amsterdam for a while, the behaviour of certain tourism groups (including British people) and the turning a blind eye by the locals was quite sinister. Amsterdam's very safe for women and liberal. But behind the scenes there are sex trafficked women and men including British born and raised men who have no qualms about taking advantage of that in the same way men in India will happily "take advantage" of foreign women on their own. Some cultures are probably worse than others. But no cultures free of it.

DP was treated differently whilst with me in Delhi - people assumed becauseI am white, he myst be British Indian. He found it very odd to be treated like a tourist in his own country - and eye-opening.

He'd been to Delhi before with his dad, years ago and had nice memories. He came away this time thinking it was a scamming shithole.

Where in the Middle East is that behavior acceptable? The form of Islam practiced in the middle east is quite different to the type practiced in Afghanistan/Pakistan.

Disappointed in this comment , it shouldn't matter what she was wearing! She could walk round naked if she liked and that still doesn't mean it's acceptable to be touched and harassed!

It happens in London too you say OP.

Yes, groups of Rotary Club members-gammons as often referred to on Mumsnet-coming up to you in broad daylight and grabbing your breasts.

That's so is it?

Why do you feel you can't make a negative remark about another culture without first denigrating your own?

That seems to be the way now-want to say something true and negative about another land or culture? Well, the only way it might be allowed is if you get it in somewhere that your own culture is just as bad and probably worse.

Laughable and quickly becoming a cliche.

Sexual violence is a huge problem for Indian women. In rural areas where there are no toilets, girls can get raped on their way into the fields. There's a horrific rape and murder case in the news at the moment - an 11 year old girl was gang raped, stuffed into a sack while still alive and thrown into a pond. There have been riots over it, and a couple of men have been killed. Then there was that recent case of a woman doctor who was sexually tortured, raped and killed at the college where she was the resident doctor. The college initially told her family she'd committed suicide. There were protests.
In places like Turkey, Morocco and Egypt, there seems to be a belief that all white women are (free) prostitutes, and they treat you accordingly if they get the chance.
I remember reading that Egypt has got worse for women over recent years. During the protests of the Arab Spring, some female protestors were raped.

IKR? Must be our magic soil.

Islam also, I believe, forbids cheating other people. However, I suspect even locals in the Middle East count their change leaving shops. Certainly I don't think every taxi driver in Egypt is completely honest.
For it's part Christianity is also very big on love thy neighbour and not killing. But the crusades and religious wars still happened.

Basically, there's what religion tells people and how the followers of those religions act. I dont think there is anything in Islam that makes men want to commit harassment (or Christianity for that matter). But that doesn't mean I'm going to assume because a man is a (Middle Eastern) Muslim he is going to act respectfully. Add in a lot of men (from all cultures) treat "out-groups" different to "in-groups" and just because one woman found the behaviour of men in the Middle East respectful, it doesn't mean they always are. Eg, pretty much all ME and Muslim countries have brothels. So some men are happy to do things they shouldn't with at least some groups of (often unconsenting) women. (This is completely true of other parts of the world, including England. I don't want you to think I am singling out the ME.)

Do you think it's disrespectful when you see women in burqas here?

Do you think they should respect our culture and jettison them?

Or do you think that respecting other cultures is a one way street?

If so, why so?

There was a scandal a while back where one of the posh members clubs (not the rotary I think) only dinner events basically became a grope fest for the waitresses serving there. It had been a problem for years so a journalist went undercover and the men were treating the (just trying to do their job) waitresses as though they were hired sex workers for the evening.
A lot of the "gentlemen's clubs" that count their history back to the 18th century would have been places where men could go where their wives weren't and at times prostitution etc was facilitated. That's why they were gentlemen only. In more recent times you still have wealthy circles of men abusing women and children but they do it on islands.

None of that excuses the behaviour of men in India. But unfortunately some men, from all cultures, will apparently if they.feel.free of consequences and if they feel they have moral permission act horribly. In India, the men clearly felt free of consequences to grope women on the street and presumably justify this by her being Western/improperly dressed/loose/out alone and therefore undeserving of respect. In the UK (fortunately) walking down the street in jeans doesn't put you in the "wrong type of women" box. But in the situation I described the (mostly white British) men felt very entitled to grope and harass the waitresses in front of all the other men and turn it into a sport..either because them paying money bought permission in their eyes, or because by agreeing to waitress the young women had signed up to that behaviour,.or because they were rich and the women poor.

The only way to prevent it is to ensure consequences always for all men who abuse any woman. And no exemption clauses. That isn't me hating my own culture, it's just pragmatism.

I found the attention and harassment in India overwhelmingly at times it was constant q

I had read/heard other women’s accounts and though I didn’t take their accounts lightly I was still shocked at how relentless it was

yes we are harassed here but it’s nit acceptable in a way it is there particularly if you are from the west

It shouldn't but I think it does. Travellers in India often advised to dress conservatively to minimise risk of these issues.

Perpetrator absolutely responsible and walking around non conservatively dressed wouldn't ever justify perpetrators actions, however, travellers can still make practical choices to reduce known risk.

You can argue all day about what people's attitudes should be, but when visiting a country you have to deal with it as it is, not as you'd like it to be.

My Australian DM traveled through India for two months alone when she was 22, in 1961. She had been obsessed with India from childhood. She knew no-one, but was very frequently approached by young women and offered accommodation with their families, which she always accepted. Otherwise she stayed in women's dormitory accommodation. She was never approached by a man inappropriately. It was extremely unusual for a lone woman to be traveling at this time, and she was treated as a sort of celebrity? With incredible kindness and hospitality. Really, anything could have happened to her, but absolutely nothing did.

This is not even comparable to a young woman travelling alone nowadays.

My work involves travel to India and I am never left alone. There are always male colleagues and chaperones. Also very lucky to do it in a "safe" way. But I have seen the poverty and it's stark.

More to point our female colleagues are given taxis home. They actually see it as a benefit.

It’s not just Western women. India is known for it’s horrendous problem with sexual violence against women and girls.

The photo taking is more likely because due to you being Western / White. Depending on ethnicity / country being visited this can be a common experience. I had this constantly in China and Russia and yes it’s uncomfortable and intrusive.

Yes, I know, the stories on this thread are horrendous. My DM was an unchaperoned single woman traveling across India in 1961. What has changed for women in the meantime - why are things so much worse?

I thought the women only carriages were in Japan not India.

Well they must. As there isn’t a known issue with sexual harassment and British-Indian (Sikh/Hindu) men.

Africa is a continent. Talking about it as if it’s a country makes zero sense.

I know plenty of people who have visited Accra with no issue and would feel fine visiting alone. I have been in Jo’Burg alone for work with zero experience of sexual harassment. And that’s only two cities in two countries.

Exactly what I was going to say.

Yes they have them in India.

They have women only carriages for a reason.

It was the 60s.. and you are relaying your mum's story. I am just saying if you look at the facts then your mum was incredibly lucky to not experience assault. I am glad she enjoyed it.

But facts are facts you are not safe going out in some spaces in India as a single woman 60 years after your mum went.

It's just facts.

Middle East or North Africa?

But where in the ME is this kind of behaviour the norm. None of the countries people have mentioned are Middle Eastern. Pakistan, Turkey, North African countries aren’t Middle eastern.