To refuse to lend DS £1,200 when he's still booked to go on holiday?

[Jaxonus]

I don't know what to do for the best as whatever I do frrls wrong
It's been a nightmare few years (probably 4) with DS and I thought we were through the other side but now I don't know

It's too long to list but something changed and he didn't care about his behaviour or school, he wasn't ever academic and was much better at practical type lessons but he was well behaved up until then but he seemed to enjoy being the class cleon and no matter what punishment he got he didn't care and in fact found it funny. He was also fixated on girls and I spoke to him multiple times about how he was treating them but that didn't go in either

When he was 16 announced he had a gf and she was pregnant but was cagy and defensive about other details and told me to stop questioning him. In the end it turned out he was lying and on a dating app and his gf was 22, she apparently knew his real age and didn't mind which I didn't believe but it later turned our that it was true.

She already had a child and ds seemed to have taken on the father role for both children. I know people will judge me especially because of the age gap but I didn't know what to do and if I went all in with anger and disapproval it would have just pushed him away when we didn't have the best relationship as it was. He’d just turned 16 and I found out about 2 months before she gave birth and he would have been 15 when baby was conceived and I did call his school and tried to speak to safeguarding as he was under the age of consent but nothing really was done and he ended up failing his gcses

He spent a year doing nothing pretty much apart from the bare minimum at college but his attendance was atrocious, he gave up rugby and he spent most of his time with her and if not in his room

Then last year he got an apprenticeship in carpentry and he seemed to enjoy it and I thought great, I bought him decent boots, gave him lifts on the odd few occasions he needed me to if the buses were unreliable due to the weather or something, lend him money if he was short until payday etc. And it was going great but he ended up losing it a few weeks ago die to health and safety, there wasn't a huge incident it was a bunch of things and his bosses were probably more patient than some would've been but he threw it back into their faces

He’d been spoken to multiple times about not having the right gear, taking shortcuts, climbing where he shouldn't, stupid little things that he shouldve known better for. According to him everyone else did it but whether they did or not is here nor there as they kept warning him until they'd had enough. He's convinced they just wanted rid of him and are using this as an excuse

Since then, he says he's applied for a few jobs but then circles back and says there's no jobs anyway. He's back to spending most his time in his room or with his gf even during weekdays when the children are at school or nursery as his gf doesn't work dur to a health condition. I've always been polite to her for my grandchild's sake but I don't agree with the choices they make

He still lives here officially and came home yesterday and asked me to lend him money, apparently £1,200 for his gf as she needs it for bills and there's some issue with child maintenance for the older child's dad, he kept saying it was only temporary and he/she would pay me back, I said no and he's turned it on me saying I don't care and he's weaponsing contact with the grandchildren now

The thing is, I could potentially do it but i’d be stretched but the reason I said no was because in a few weeks he's booked to go to Italy with her and the children, he booked it using his government trust fund he got at 18, which I told him to be careful with but no he knows best and booked a holiday

I mentioned it yesterday and he said it's different as it's already been booked and the children are excited and I can't tell him to upset a 5 and 2 year old by csncelling and they'd lose some money anyway. They've never been abroad and want to make memories etc (which they could do here and go next year or when they have more money)

I'm not made of money but I'm careful because I have to be and I do have money put away for emergencies like car repairs or things like that. He's barely spoken to me and apparently I'm unsupportive. I've mentioned jobs again and he said he'll look properly after their holiday but repeated there's no jobs anywhere

If he'd actually been looking and cancelled id maybe I wouldn't have hesitated but he isn't helping himself or anyone But he's accused of me making the children suffer but I don't see how I am

AIBU for refusing?

He could always get a cheaper holiday in the UK for 3 days so the children don’t miss out . Don’t pay for their holiday , if she is in debt now she’s unlikely to pay you back , maybe she should ask her family!

I feel for you, OP, that’s not a situation anyone would want for their DC. Regardless, I wouldn’t lend the money - it’s a holiday and if he couldn’t have afforded it then he shouldn’t have booked it. I’m sure he’ll come crawling back when he needs childcare or favours.
He’s a father and needs to earn if his GF can’t work.

Good for you, but your personal spending habits are completely irrelevant. And Emergency fund money is not spare cash. So your advice is to reward emotional blackmail. Manipulative behaviour should not be encouraged .

You have no idea whether he will become a good father or a good partner and you certainly don’t know that lending him £1200 will make it happen. People grow up by facing consequences. Not by learning that threatening their parents get them something they want.

You are inventing a dept that only ever gets paid in cash. Parents can regret mistakes without being financially extorted by their adult children.

There’s another thread going about why offer 30 hours to non-working parents and you can see in this situation how desperately disadvantaged children like this are, with irresponsible parents having child after child, not able to manage money, putting themselves first. So depressing.

Why and how do they know this? If you are so flush that you have £100 to spend on nails each month why would they need to even consider looking at anyone else’s money?

Plenty of teenage or young adult children don’t understand what people really have and if they see someone else has a job, a home a holiday a year they somehow come to the conclusion that they must also have enough to pay for someone else to do the same. Adults also seem to do the same looking at mumsnet with people saying to just give money/ pay deposits, help children move out and pay rent. £1200 is a ton of money to give or loan to two people who don’t work by choice and are not likely to be working. How did they get in that much debt when on benefits with the son living at home? Blackmailing his mother with pay per view is a shitty thing to do. It would be one thing helping them out with bits, paying for stuff for kids or treats if they showed they were actually fucking trying themselves. Plenty of people would take a year or more to save 1200 why should they loan or give it to someone else who is making choices they wouldn’t make?

You would be wise to refuse. Accepting would encourage him to believe bad behaviour works.

No way would I lend him money. If the children needed food I would buy it for them. I definitely wouldn’t encourage his selfishness.
What are his GF health problems. Is there no wfh type of job she could do.
Even supermarket shelf stocking overnight is an option. Sometimes there are options if they look hard enough, or is it easier just to rely on others to support.

Do not lend him the money. He needs to step up and take responsibility for his own life.

If you start, it will just happen more and more.

Don’t fund things you don’t approve of. You can’t control how he lives, but don’t be an enabler of it.

Whats the GF living situation? Have you been to her house? Sorry but he would have to move out! Can the GF really not work at all?

Im on that thread also. Its unfortunate but we don't have an unlimited pot of money to give away to the feckless parents.

He needs to stop smoking the weed and sort his life out.

That's very deliberately missing the point you're responding to!

The entire point of free early childhood education is to support children from disadvantaged homes to enter primary school at the same level as their age peers - this benefits everyone as it allows teachers to teach the class without the disruption of children whose delayed speech, toilet training and motor and social skills are due to neglect rather than to SEND.

Early years education shouldn't be a prize for deserving parents, it should be a right for children and recognised as benefiting society as a whole.

The weird resource guarding and demands that children suffer for having disadvantaged backgrounds is very short-sighted.

Editing because I thought I was replying on the thread about giving Calpol to a neighbour who seems to be getting through vast quantities of it and generally being chaotic.

I don't think giving this couple money the OP can't afford is the right option here, especially as it's very unclear where the money will actually go!

Please don't give the money. I watched my mother go through almost this exact scenario with my youngest brother. The woman involved was 10 years his senior with 2 kids already from someone else and she 'accidentally' got pregnant when .y brother joined the army and she was losing control. They bled my mother dry financially, threatened to cut her off, she paid for driving lessons for both of them and bought them a small car, babysat untold hours, paid for groceries, clothes for all of them, holidays - you name it. She even gave up a beautiful dream cottage to enable them to move to a different part of the country using the little girl as the tool 'it will give her a better future' etc. My mother ended up homeless and living in her car with her two cats. She was in hospital with pulmonary embolism for 8 weeks, they took all of her pension money and savings, they only visited once to get the bank card. My brother was a fool and weak and the woman he was with was the most rapacious person I have ever known and knew how to put the pressure on to get what she wanted. They ended up doing a moonlight flit owing months of rent on the house my mother had signed for as guarantor, they sold all of her belingings whilst she was in hospiral then disappeared. This is more or less how these types play out. Save yourself a lot of heartache and say no, for your own sake, the sake of your marriage and your other family. Even if you give it,they won't be grateful and will want more next time. He's a big lad,let him figure it out himself. If you keep giving, you are enabling.

Hell would freeze over before I'd give him any more money. He says "loan". If he hasn't a job, how the hell is he going to pay back a "loan"? And, I'm also guessing the £1200 is spending money for this Italian holiday, nothing else. Keep YOUR money in YOUR bank. If he says you're not getting to see your grandchild, tell him OK. Because he'll keep doing the same thing to you, over and over. Let's face it, he'll need you before you need him.

So why isn't he claiming universal credit and getting his NI stamp paid? Is it because they would require him to take a job and properly jobhunt instead of dossibg around on your expense?

I dontvknow how you feel about actually seeing the bills and paying the most critical directly? It would mean actually sitting down with them and going through the finances with them, establishing what the maintenence issues are and so on. I agree, you arent likely to get it back. Reach out to the gf's parents? That might be tricky, I know.

You can't lend him money as he has not got the means to pay it back. If he is shirking on getting a job and supporting his child, his girlfriend won't pay you back either, since you have no recourse to her

. If you want to gift him money that's entirely up to you to gift what you can afford but it sounds like you cant afford £1200. He and his girlfriend have responsibilities which they need to take account of and they must have budgeted for the holiday and bills and set aside spending money.

Why isn't the older child's father paying child support? That sounds like that is an added complication butis that partly it because your son spends most of his time at her place or because the older child is now spending 50% of the time with his/ her father? . If you do, this once you will become an enabler to them both to shirk responsibilities. Don't allow him to use the grandchildren as pawns.

How much money are her parents and the other grandparents lending her and what is being done by the child support agency regarding child support from both children's fathers? . Is you son A actually contributing anything to supporting his son child.

You could help find out about universally credit and emergency loans/Adam es for essentials like rent but quite frankly if you pay towards their essentials your are going to be asked again and again.

What exactly does the girlfriend see for the medium term future. Is she going back to work any time soon, even.part time?

Lots more information needed to see what if anything you can do to get them to face up to their responsibilities.

No, don't lend or give the money. We made similar mistakes with DS1. It enabled prolonged irresponsible dependence and eventually lost him his very nice gf. Tough love sooner would have in reality been much more helpful to him.

@notretiredyet01 I suspect that if the OP reached out to the gf's parents, she'd probably find out that the gf owes money to them.

You are being very sensible by refusing. You are not the bank or a money-lending service and you don’t want this to set a precedent.
Don’t back down or they will always be asking you.

His gf had no business having two children if she has health condition and can’t support them. Getting pregnant by a 15 yo when you are not a similarly young teen is vile. A 15 yo is clearly not in a position to support a family so what is she living off - benefits?

Having ‘feckless’ parents is never a child’s fault.

Seriously, you are asking if you should give your BF's other girlfriend £1,200 for her bills- which she ran up? FFS of course you should'nt- he is her BF not yours, forget him and move on.

YANBU.
If he wants adult experiences, he needs to accept natural consequences and resolve issues himself, with his partner.