Neighbours angry at DS for snapping back and daughter’s homophobia - hypocrisy??

[TheNoisyDeer]

DS, 13, came out in Year 6 at the age of 10 and he has struggled with making friends ever since. His boy friends always used to make him the butt of the joke so he stopped being friends with them. He has a couple of female friends now but he still feels like he can’t be himself around them because they give him the side eye when they talk about boys and he talks about boys too. Due to this he feels on the defence when his sexuality is spoken about.

I invited our neighbours over earlier this evening for chat and drinks in the sunshine and the younger girl, 8, overheard her sister (the older daughter), 11, talking to DS about their crushes. She laughed at him, made a few comments about it being weird and called him a “gay boy”. I don’t know whether she’d picked it up from school or somewhere, but DS was clearly upset. He snapped and called her “a stupid bitch” and to “f off”.

There was immediate anger from her parents because she’s only 8 and they said there was no excuse for speaking to a young girl like that and demanded I tell him off. The older daughter also took her side and shouted at him to not talk to her sister like that. He looked startled, humiliated and ran inside.

I went inside and spoke to him about the language he used and said it wasn’t acceptable, especially to a girl that young, but I also told him I understood why he was hurt and that nobody should mock someone’s sexuality. DS said he didn’t care how old she was because she’d been horrible to him first and then refused to go back outside and apologise. I explained this to my neighbours and the mum said she wanted to leave and won’t put up with her daughters being spoken to in that manner and they left.

Ideally I would have expected the children to apologise to each other, preferably her first as she started it and then moved on but I was shocked by their reaction to just leave. We’ve been good friends for years and now I feel hurt by their lack of accountability for the homophobia and hypocrisy. I wouldn’t like the friendship to end but I won’t be bowing down to them.

AIBU for thinking both children were in the wrong but both the daughter and parents are more so?

The difference between a 13 year old boy and an 8 year old girl is massive. Of course the girl needs educating and should be told why her actions were wrong and hurtful but your son’s response was absolutely disgusting. I would be mortified if my teen used that language at a young girl.

Rubbish. Picking on this who are different is not ok and never excusable.8 year olds are perfectly capable of knowing many people love and are in same sex relationships. As you say there is nothing wrong with it.

And yes 10 year olds can be sure of who they are attracted to. My son was, ditto the other gay people we know.

Absolutely right.
I'm not going to be scared of an 8-year-old girl but a hormone driven 13-year-old boy who's angry?
Very much so.

The boy in this scenario has- by virtue of being encouraged to come out at such a young age- is now experiencing normal hormonal changes PLUS the possibility that his sexuality may have altered having undergone puberty.

A ten-year-old should not be encouraged to make any declarations about its sexual orientation as there's a strong case this orientation is not yet fixed.

Gay children should be validated. Not validating causes mental health struggles particularly when coupled with homophobic language and/ or bullying.

If it happened in school I would be reporting it and expect it to be dealt with robustly whatever the age- as it would be.

I know parents naturally want to help their children as much as they can. But honestly in matters of developing sexuality in the pre-teen to late teen years I think it's better that children find their own way along with all the trials and tribulations that that involves and parents are as hands off as they can be.

Larkin's words always resound with me:

"They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you"

A responsible parent would, in my opinion, given the knowledge that children will pick on others who are different- whether that's right or wrong a responsible parent would factor that in and just accept that's how life is
AND the knowledge that puberty matters as regards sexual orientation, gently advise a ten-year-old against coming out.

Wait a while, see how you feel past puberty and so on. That's my view of what a good parent would do.

There's no need for a ten-year-old to come out, anyway.
Presuming the age of consent is 16, what's the point?

I remember having a crush on another girl at nine. It wasn't sexuaI at all as I had absolutely no interest in such things as I was only 9.
I'm sure that this is common.

If somebody had labelled me a lesbian because of it, it would have screwed my life up because now I had the label of being a lesbian attached to me.
When in fact I like boys in the adult way. And obviously no boy would go near me even if he liked me as he'd assume I wasn't interested.

Absolutely.

What your son said was completely unacceptable, your neighbours daughter is 8, if he didn’t like what she said then speaking to her parents, or telling her it isn’t a nice thing to say would be better than him overreacting.

Yes I think this too… why is everyone so keen on talking about crushes all the time? Is this all they talk about? Surely he can just talk about normal things like sports, tv and hobbies. Your ds doesn’t have to make it known that he is gay at every opportunity. So he is gay…so what?!

Hmm.
Interesting.
What, after all, is a 'gay child?'

I think that the answer would very much depend on whether the child is pre- pubescent or not.
A 10-year-old boy, for example should be gently advised against coming out by his parents until he has undergone puberty at which time his sexuality will be no doubt set.
I don't doubt that a 15-year-old boy knows what his sexuality is.
At which point he can come out.

What the OP has done, in my opinion, instead of being the strong but gentle guide a parent should be, has been led by the child, thus has possibly created more issues as that boy's sexual orientation may no longer align with the one he professed at ten.

I regard this as poor parenting.

😂at you dictating when a child that is gay can come out. My child came out to me when he was ready. And as for poor parenting as regards parents listening, validating feelings and supporting their child. Words fail me

So girls can discuss crushes but not gay children. They all do at that age and towards the end of primary.

When your child is sobbing because they know they’re gay and will never have children and are already being picked on and think they are an awful human for being gay having told nobody else you support, validate, reassure being gay being perfectly ok and nothing to feel bad about. You absolutely don’t have a hands off approach.

No you absolutely do not tell children being bullied that that is just how life is.

I am not dictating anything.

I am merely pointing out my belief that a pre- pubescent child has no clue what its sexual orientation is until it has passed through puberty.

Thus a good parent would privately give support and validation whilst advising that 'coming out' would not be advisable until puberty has passed as then they could be sure as regards what their sexual orientation is.
So coming out at 15, fine.
Ten? Not fine. At all.

If they do not do this then not only are they encouraging bullying of that child (on account that children pick on anyone who is different and as a grown adult they should realise that and not expect the world to change) but are also pigeonholing that child's sexual orientation at too early an age.

This is not a controversial view at all.

Supporting one's children is about being a wise but kind guide, not accepting everything they say as fact.
That, in my opinion, is poor parenting.

As the adult in the room a person has a duty to think about the situation more objectively, though, and realise the pitfalls of coming out at such an early age whilst offering unconditional support to the child in private.

The pitfalls being : bullying from other children and pigeonholing a child's sexual orientation at too young an age.

It's not so much that girls can discuss crushes and boys can't discuss crushes about other boys, it's that kids will pick on other kids who are different to them.
It could be being gay, it could be that they are too short.

You can rail against this as much as you like, but it's just how children are.

I advise that you develop a more realistic attitude to this.

I would agree with this. In fact I'd say wait not just until they have gone through puberty but to wait until they have had personal experiences after puberty. After all there are plenty of people who don't get around to deciding their sexuality until middle age. It's a spectrum remember.

It's very topical right now with proposed legislation to ban "gay conversion" but there is an equal if not greater possibility that well meaning but misguided parents desparately trying to be "modern" damage their children by being too encouraging of coming out as gay at an early age. This is one area of life parents can't assist with (other than passive support).

My kids never discuss crushes at family things like that…perhaps in private at a sleepover etc but I never heard them or their friends “discuss” crushes…I’ve heard them taunt each and laugh etc…but no sitting and discussing crushes at 8-13 is not normal imo…

Can you explain your comment please? Are you suggesting talking about his crushes with his peers is the issue.

I do agree with this.

Some people absolutely do know they're gay at an early age, but young teenagers are also well known to seek identity and try on different ones, and are easily influenced by what they see around them. So I'd be wary about making it into a big announcement and your whole identity as such a young age. It's easier to come out of the closet than it is to go back in.

That said, and despite the current obsession with identity, I think young people nowadays are perhaps more open to things being more fluid. Which is a positive thing.

Therefore the situation is completely different. The age of criminal responsibility is 10, there is a reason for that and it's because children under that age often don't understand the consequences to their actions. That's not to say that the 8 year old shouldn't be educated and talked to about what she said (I don't think anyone is saying it should just be ignored) but the 13yo is rightly held to higher standards and what he said was completely unacceptable and overshadowed what she said.

Children aged 8 are fully capable of understanding that words hurt and aren't acceptable

You sound ridiculous

Teenage boys fight all the time. Stop acting like they don't

Both can leave lasting scars
You're being very dismissive of emotional abuse and bullying