Neighbours angry at DS for snapping back and daughter’s homophobia - hypocrisy??

[TheNoisyDeer]

DS, 13, came out in Year 6 at the age of 10 and he has struggled with making friends ever since. His boy friends always used to make him the butt of the joke so he stopped being friends with them. He has a couple of female friends now but he still feels like he can’t be himself around them because they give him the side eye when they talk about boys and he talks about boys too. Due to this he feels on the defence when his sexuality is spoken about.

I invited our neighbours over earlier this evening for chat and drinks in the sunshine and the younger girl, 8, overheard her sister (the older daughter), 11, talking to DS about their crushes. She laughed at him, made a few comments about it being weird and called him a “gay boy”. I don’t know whether she’d picked it up from school or somewhere, but DS was clearly upset. He snapped and called her “a stupid bitch” and to “f off”.

There was immediate anger from her parents because she’s only 8 and they said there was no excuse for speaking to a young girl like that and demanded I tell him off. The older daughter also took her side and shouted at him to not talk to her sister like that. He looked startled, humiliated and ran inside.

I went inside and spoke to him about the language he used and said it wasn’t acceptable, especially to a girl that young, but I also told him I understood why he was hurt and that nobody should mock someone’s sexuality. DS said he didn’t care how old she was because she’d been horrible to him first and then refused to go back outside and apologise. I explained this to my neighbours and the mum said she wanted to leave and won’t put up with her daughters being spoken to in that manner and they left.

Ideally I would have expected the children to apologise to each other, preferably her first as she started it and then moved on but I was shocked by their reaction to just leave. We’ve been good friends for years and now I feel hurt by their lack of accountability for the homophobia and hypocrisy. I wouldn’t like the friendship to end but I won’t be bowing down to them.

AIBU for thinking both children were in the wrong but both the daughter and parents are more so?

She has every valid reason - their daughter was acting in a homophobic manner and they didn't call her out on it

The little girl may not have even fully understood what she was saying, "Gay boy" is a common taunt at schools nowadays. I doubt that makes her "homophobic" - just silly.

Your child was upset, obviously, but his reaction was completely unacceptable. I totally get the neighbour for leaving. I can't believe you think what he said was a fair and proportional response. He obviously got triggered but swearing like this would not make his life easier and will not win him any friends in the future.

Your neighbours are homophobes so good you've learned that now and can stay away from them. You aren't going to get what you want from them so leave it.

It does sound like some counselling might be helpful for your son though to improve his self esteem and give him coping mechanisms on how to deal with horrible people. If he reacts like that as a teenager he could put himself in a dangerous situation and while that shouldn't be the reality it sadly is.

If their daughter was not also immediately spoken to and expected to apologise for her hurtful language (and whether she understood it or not, her words were hurtful to him) then I can understand him not wanting to apologise

Being the only one to apologise would be backing down and saying "it's ok for you to insult me and it's not ok for me to react"

I wouldn't have let them stay in my house anyway tbh if they wouldn't make her apologise and hadn't spoken to her there and then.

I’m with you OP. I think there is also a huge element of patriarchy in this that a girl’s feelings being hurt is awful but a boy is somehow fair game or should just deal with it.
Obviously your DS should apologise for swearing. But so should the girl for her nasty comments. Ideally both parents would have facilitated a conversation where both swearing and homophobic language was clearly not acceptable and the kids were better informed for having had the conflict and able to apologise and forgive the other one.

Hi, hello yes ACTUALLY several PP have said the same thing about it being his "whole personality"

Kids also aren't born with prejudices, they learn those from the people around then

It's not "technically" homophobia. It just is. And the language on this thread shows just how deeply ingrained it is in people. And why we need to get mad and call it out.

He's 13, they don't react the most sensible anyway and he's been bullied for being gay so he's a bit more sensitive about it

It's on the parents to educate not the victim!

An 8 year old is well aware laughing at someone for being different is mean, even if they don't fully understand the words they're using

She used adult homophobic slurs. And she used them to be cruel. He used the language his age group uses to retaliate to his hurt.

"But she's only 8, she doesn't know what homophobia is"
Wouldn't wash if it was attacking a different minority

Agreed. I think this could have been sorted quickly if everyone had apologised as they were all in the wrong to some extent. I don’t think the girl was homophobic but she was definitely mean.

Of course she was homophobic. What do you think homophobia is? She wasn't using "gay boy" as a form of affection.

She was being a brat, he responded disproportionately
How would you feel if he had hit her? His aggressive verbal response isn’t far off that.

She fucked around and found out. You’re right to pull DS up, but she started it and he ended it. Good on him.

I know it's not. But adopting a fixed identity at age 10 seems a bit premature.

How is it fixed? Not to mention that 3 years on he's still clearly gay. The only reason it would be an issue is if being gay is somehow lesser. No-one is forced to have relationships with the same sex if they change their mind which it clearly seems the boy hasn't. Saying your gay at any age doesn't mean that for the rest of your life you're fixed. Lots of people in the LGB community will experiment with labels. The response should be acceptance and understanding as people grow or evolve. No one would even think to question a straight kid if they said they said they found girls pretty at age 10. It's been in films such as love actually where an 11 year old declared his love for a girl. That film and many others are problematic in many ways but I've never seen that raised as an issue. Nor are the multiple instances of straight relationships shown in children's TV. It's only really an issue saying you're gay when people equate it to sex as opposed to relationships and simple attraction to beauty and personality as they would for straight children.

Yes, I see what you mean.

I'm old; I just find the whole thing about defining children by their sexuality weird. From the ages of 10 to 13 I was, oh I don't know, probably playing with a spinning top or hop scotch on the pavement! 😁

I also disagree with you and think you’re putting an adult interpretation on to an 8 year old child’s words. For her it is more she indeed found it weird, as in unusual, different, and not likely something she herself had encountered before, a gay child telling her about him fancying other boys. The term gay boy is likely something she heard at school didn’t fully understand.

my view is always when you hear words you don’t like, understand who is saying them, the intent behind the words, the context behind them, for example an 8 year old child saying it is very different to a 18 year old.

and then react appropriately. The response of stupid bitch and fuck off. To an eight year old was done fully knowing and understanding the meaning of those words.

as said, I am a parent of a gay child, no one should ever tolerate homophobia, but if a child is taught to reacte in this aggressive way, irrrelevant of intent and context, they will have a very sad and lonely life. Much better to explain why it’s not ok, the meaning behind the words, speak to the parents. And in the first instance teach, sure if she is told and does it again, then fair enough.

but personally I’d be utterly horrified if my child verbally abused and attacked an 8 year old for this. I would expect them to behave in a measured manner in line with their age.

“Gay boy” is not an adult homophobic slur. It’s an eight year old’s terminology for a gay boy. Yes she was laughing about it and teasing him because she didn’t properly understand, and as I said she should have been made to apologise. Do you have an eight year old?

If “gay boy” counts as an adult homophobic slur to you, then you’ve lived an incredibly sheltered life. Get off your soap box ffs.

I agree with you. And I think the posters salivating about abusing this little girl and accusing her of homophobia are very wrong indeed.

There’s no end of excuses provided by some posters for the awful behaviour of this very angry teen boy. As if what’s happened to him in the past any way justified how he reacted to her. Don’t think this works as a crime defence in real life, does it.

I don't think I've seen many people defending his behaviour. There's always going to be a few but the overwhelming majority, including myself, do not think it is acceptable. However, criminal law has mitigation it's built into our court process and includes the idea that 13 year olds do not always respond correctly. It's why we have categories for youth offending because we understand that a teenager is not going to get everything right or respond as an adult should. What isn't ok is the adults on this thread being homophobic and that many genuinely seem to think the little girl should not be spoken to or need to apologise. It's generally acknowledged that if we do damage, whether we mean to or not, we apologise and learn to do better. In this girls case it would be through education. If it were my 8 year old I'd also want to know where she initially heard that so it could be dealt with. If it happened at school she'd be in trouble because calling someone weird and laughing about them whatever their characteristics may be is not going to go down well in a decent school should another child or parent complain or the kid gets overheard. The girls parents are setting her up for failure here if they don't address it. "He behaved worse to my bad behaviour than expected" is not the defence people think it is. Also another (sometimes legal) concept is 'we take the victim as we find them' if you bully someone you, in real life don't get to dictate the response others have to that.

It's not fixed... saying you're gay at 10 doesn't mean you can't change how you identify later on when you understand more

You probably need to go tell that to many sports clubs and other organisations who have begun to crack down on this after many years of it being a fairly common insult amongst boys from ages 8-20 at least until they here faggot, bum boy, nonce etc and start using them. My eldest was half way through year 7 when his peers started on the harder ones but gay boy stuck around through most of his school career. It does take a different tone when you hear it repeatedly, multiple times a day but then no-one really credits homophobes with creativity.

True. To me, sexuality of any kind seems irrelevant at that age, though. I realise how old-fashioned this is!

Regardless of understanding fully the term "gay boy", laughing and calling someone weird is offensive and hurtful and an 8 year old is well aware of that

She acted in a hurtful way, he reacted (badly but he was the vicitm)

She should have still been called out for the words she used and expected to apologise