AIBU to think my parents are ignorant & somewhat racist ???

[ForCyanShaker]

DH and I are both mid 40s. We moved to Dubai nearly 18 years ago for jobs, what was meant to be temporary became permanent, and we’ve built our lives here. We are still British, still expats, but very settled.

Our children were both born in Singapore as we were there for work for a while too. They’re British citizens but have never lived in the UK. We visit 6 or so times a fear. Frequent enough for them to somewhat know England or at least know where DH and I are from/grew up. They’ve done all the sightseeing, London eye, Scotland, Wales, Cotswolds, Cornwall etc they’ve been UK

They attend an international school here which is academically strong and well regarded. It’s also affiliated in various ways with UK private schools and a lot of the teaching staff are British. It follows a fairly rigorous curriculum, and many students go on to UK universities.

But the reality of the school is that it’s very international, as you’d expect. Their friendship group includes children from England, Scotland, America, Barbados, Bermuda, South Africa, Australia, India and many other countries. That’s just their normal.

We recently sent my parents a school class photos because they asked for it. My parents’ reaction really shocked us. They focused entirely on the fact it “doesn’t look English” and that there are “so many non-English children” in the class. My mum said she found it upsetting and that it made her feel sad for my sons.

We’ve also had similar reactions to other things. We sent a photo from my eldest son’s birthday recently around 20 children at a party here. Again, instead of being happy, the comments were about how it must be “just rich international kids” and that this isn’t a normal upbringing, and that we should be coming back to England.

The same narrative keeps coming up: that the children are “barely English anymore”, don’t sound English, don’t understand England properly, and that we’re somehow denying them a “proper British childhood”.
Even the accents get mentioned, they don’t have traditional English accents, more of an ‘international school’ accent despite DH and I having very southern England accents , which apparently is another concern.

What I struggle with is that from our perspective, none of this is negative.
My children are happy, confident, well educated, and very comfortable around people from all backgrounds. They don’t really think in terms of nationality in the way I grew up doing. They just see friends.

They are very well travelled, have lived this international lifestyle all their lives, and are completely at ease in multicultural environments. I actually see that as a strength rather than something missing.

But my parents seem to view it as a loss, like they’ve ended up with grandchildren who are somehow less “British” than they expected, and that this needs correcting by moving back.

They’re also very keen for us to return to the UK permanently, offering to buy us a house in cobham, but we simply don’t want to. I grew up in cobham, I don’t want to live there now. We have a good life here, we feel safe, the children are thriving, and we’re not ready to leave.

I grew up in Surrey and part of me does remember how small and insular things could feel, and I don’t think I want to go back to that for my children.

I feel guilty because I understand they miss us and want us closer, especially as they get older. But I also feel frustrated that everything about our children’s lives here is being framed as “wrong” or “less British”.

First it was ‘when are you two going to have children’ now I don’t think they love our children. They’re not willing to accept them. They’re still young, we can move back to the England and they’ll get an English accent but we don’t want to and also why does it matter. There’s more things my parents have said. Another example that really pissed me off was along the lives of what if one of the boys bring home a girl that isn’t English. Why does it matter??? It’s a disgusting way to view the world.

I agree but clearly I am so why can’t I be.

I think anyone is allowed to feel his they want about anything. Especially when it’s something like this that they brought up many times on different occasions in different ways.

Look I do not disagree with anything you say. You are right and maybe I’m wrong but this is essentially how I feel regardless I am not afraid to be wrong. I do not know everything.

I personally think two beliefs can exist at the same time. I am not saying I am better and my parents are bad but I’m simply calling them out on their racist ignorant beliefs as it’s not just one comment it’s many in different ways in different contexts not just about my children’s future partners.

Challenge, criticise, call out - but why cut off? IMO that would just be incredibly cruel and enormously hypocritical, considering you yourself described the place you choose to live, that in your opinion sets your DC up for life so wonderfully, as "a place that is kept up by slavery, essentially". So apparently it’s a dreadful, unforgivable crime for your parents to talk like that, but OK for you and your children to live with and benefit from that system every day because you’re aware of it.

I'd be very surprised if your older children at least don’t hear racist language and snobbish attitudes at school from some of their highly privileged classmates, and maybe from those classmates' parents. I’m sure it is counteracted by the example of yourself and your DH. I don’t understand why you can’t explain to them (if they hear things you dislike said by their grandparents, though you haven’t actually said they do) that their GPs are silly, out of date, and never had the chance to benefit from living with people of other nationalities. It’s not as if they see them that often.

I remember my grandmother, who I loved dearly, using offensive language about black people when I was about 8. My mother simply explained it to me afterwards in the way I’ve described. It didn’t scar me for life.

I agree. I think it’s a really bizarre high horse to jump onto when the OP’s own moral stance is that it’s fine to benefit from racism, classism and literal slavery because she acknowledges it? So if the grandparents acknowledge their old fashioned racism is that ok?

The world has changed a lot in the last 50 years. My own grandmother was a bit racist, my in-laws found my existence in the family bewildering (either as a New Yorker or a Jew, depending on the scenario) and there were comments made many times that had to be taken in context. I educated, I explained, I answered questions and we all figured it out together.

I think in this particular situation it’s even more important to find a way to talk about these things as the kids will be hearing and seeing terrible things all the time in their little wealthy bubble. That is far more damaging than some offhand remarks from grandparents far away. I genuinely can’t work out why that racism is dramatically awful but living where the OP does and seeing what they must be seeing every day is somehow acceptable. Either both are terrible (my opinion) or it’s just how life is in this world.

Exactly.

I don't think the OPs parents are racist at all, they are simply very "old school" and probably have little or no experience of other races or creeds. It is still inherent in people with limited personal experience of foreigners to regard them as outsiders and with suspicion. Yes, most of us nowdays have friends, colleagues, neighbours who are not "white British" but some parts of the country have far fewer than others. I recall growing up that the only "foreigners" I knew were the family who ran the Chinese Takeaway down the High Street!

If the OPs parents have lived their lives in such an environment then they won't have the experience of knowing those with other creeds, cultures or heritage and may well regard them with suspicion.

I would kindly explain to the parents that the world is a bigger place nowadays and diversity is to be embraced rather than just tolerated.

As a Grandparent myself I am almost heartbroken that my 2-week old grandson lives 200 miles away and my health is pretty poor so I won't be seeing much of him, but my DD must live her life as she sees fit and that's that! He is also being brought up in a very multicultural city so might well have friends from around the world, might even marry one of them, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. It's a pity that OPs parents can't see that the world has changed a lot in their lifetime and they need to change with it cos it isn't going to stop changing to accommodate their very narrow view of life.

But no, they are not racist, they just haven't moved on from the village mentality.

Maybe the fact that I went to secondary school in one of the largest cities in England and had classmates of many different colours and creeds, some of whom became lifelong friends.

Please don't cut off your parents because of this, but maybe make it clear that the topic is not for discussion if they aren't prepared to at least listen to your concerns.

OP, I know that your parents say all this crap to you. But would they be reasonable if you said "Hey, Mum and Dad. Don't say anything about skin colour in front of the kids, OK? I don't want them thinking about things like that. Let them have a childhood." I'm just putting it that way because your parents might respond to that.

I feel for you. I had a pretty bad issue with my parents in their last ten years where they kept espousing this really 1950s view at me - basically they wanted me to have kids, give up work, and let my husband handle all the "manly" stuff. I consulted a lawyer once, over things to do with our house and the builder, and my mum told me that it was my husband's job to do that, not mine! And they would ring up and ask if I was cooking his dinner etc. Once, I hammered a couple of nails into a wall in the cupboard to hang the clothes airer, and they were like "Why isn't DH doing that?" Oh my god, it was terrible.

But the main issue is that they absolutely refused to stop. Just refused. Even though I had calm conversations stating my boundaries. They just ran roughshod over them. They were relentless, especially about the baby pressure. The ONLY way to get them to stop would have been to have a major falling-out with them. Nothing else would have worked. Well, except a terminal cancer diagnosis for my mum. That's what it took to get them to shut the hell up.

So I really understand about senior parents who go on and on and on, and simply Will. Not. Listen. It's like having a pair of giant toddlers!!!

They're both gone now, and I don't miss that part of our relationship one little bit. I miss who they were before they got older and essentially went mad.

I'm taking that most aren't the White kind

‘Old school’ and ‘village mentality’ can still be racist, that’s just giving them an excuse.

I grew up in a village and could not wait to leave because of the ‘village mentality’. It’s a big wide world out there.

I agree with those who think it's a very strange and hypocritical position for OP to be taking given the country that she chooses to live in, and the way it treats people who aren't protected by virtue of being rich and privileged foreigners who live in enclaves.

OP might be paying lip service to 'cultural diversity', but in practice she's actually materially benefiting from segregation, human rights violations, and modern slavery. Meanwhile, her parents might have made a few dubious, old-fashioned comments, but I bet they're not materially benefiting from segregation, human rights violations, and modern slavery.

They're actually more ethical than she is, funnily enough.

I think you're conflating two very different issues. Under the assumption that I think I am a good person or on a moral high ground of course I am not I live in the UAE.

Acknowledging that the UAE has serious human rights issues doesn't mean I have to pretend they don't exist. People can benefit from living somewhere while still recognising and criticising aspects of that society. I think it's being honest about complexity.

The bigger point, though, is that I can't control every prejudice my children may encounter in the world. They may well hear racist or classist comments at school, online, or elsewhere. That's an unfortunate reality. What I can control is who I choose to give regular access to my children.

There's a significant difference between your child overhearing something objectionable and a grandparent someone they naturally trust and look up to repeatedly expressing prejudiced views. Family relationships carry a different weight because children are taught from a young age that grandparents are safe, loving adults whose opinions matter.

We've already challenged my parents on multiple occasions. They didn't simply make one outdated comment and accept correction. They continued raising the same subject in different ways, each time becoming more focused on race and nationality after we'd already made our position clear. At some point, setting a boundary isn't about punishing them to me it's just about deciding what values we want consistently reinforced around our children.

I'm pleased that your experience with your grandmother was different. But one person's experience doesn't become a universal rule.

Every family dynamic is different, and every parent has to decide where their own boundaries lie. Mine isn't based on wanting to shield my children from the existence of racism it's based on not wanting people within my own family spewing racist and ignorant beliefs and I certainly do not want to normalise it. I love and care about my parents but I’m also allowed to make my one decisions in terms of my children. I can’t control every single thing my children will hear or normalise but I’d rather it was not my parents and that’s absolutely fine. Others in my situation are free to do their own thing.

To my my parents are very educated people no reason for these ideas. My father was a doctor, he worked in a practice owned by an Asian man. They’re both university educated, wealthy people with access to all the resources, they have travelled the world, they live in cobham, my mother would not say such things in front of lots within that area as lots are educated and know how silly some of these ideas are. They don’t live in an area that has racial tensions etc. My father not so ignorant but I think it’s sad he won’t call out my mother on her ideas.

I think you’re thinking I’m disagree with you. I’m not disagreeing at all but I can also have my own views same way you can. We can all see the world differently, we all have different experiences, different upbringings. I don’t think racism from anyone is fine regardless of whether it’s someone I love. I don’t think it’s okay to comment on the skin colour of my children’s friends. I think my children would be very hurt if they knew what their grandmother thought of some of their friends who just happen to not be white then the white ones my mother just assumes they’re English but some are not. It shows the privilege of being white when one can take a photo and assume someone’s race/ethnicity/nationality based on a photo and the colour of their skin. Personally do not think the French would be very happy with someone thinking they’re English when they’re not. She’s assumed one of the French boys my children is close to is English/British . He is far from English. He’s just white and that’s the issue. Yet the Sri Lankan boy, born in England, 3 grandparents born in England, parents born in England cannot possibly be British to my mother. My own children aren’t even born in England ?! What a way to see the world.

@ForCyanShaker "What a way to see the world."

I think this is a much, much worse way to see the world:

"I live in a place that is kept up by slavery essentially and I am well aware of that but DH and I were very young and did not have many opportunities in England. We had better opportunities than the new grads in England have right now but still it wasn’t enough for us."

Consciously trying to justify taking advantage of (racist) modern slavery and human rights violations, because your opportunities in England 'weren't enough' is wild. I don't think you have a leg to stand on when it comes to accusing your parents of racism.

They value British culture highly, and are sad their grandkids are cultural outsiders. They also have the old-fashioned idea that white=British, and brown=foreign. But throughout their lives, from what you've said, it doesn't seem they've behaved in a way that's impacted negatively on people of other races. Perhaps you should just correct them gently each time and give them a pass, the way your children may one day need to give you a pass for deliberately choosing to benefit from slavery.

I don't think those two issues are equivalent.

I've never tried to justify nor deny the human rights issues that exist where we live. Recognising isn't the same as endorsing it.

I also think you're minimising what my parents have actually said. This isn't simply "valuing British culture" or being sad their grandchildren live abroad. They have repeatedly made comments about children's skin colour, questioned what we'd do if our son married someone who wasn't English, and continued raising the issue after we'd already made our views clear.

At that point, it stops being an innocent generational misunderstanding and becomes a pattern.

I can acknowledge uncomfortable truths about where I live while also deciding that I don't want those kinds of conversations normalised around my children. Those positions aren't contradictory. I am not perfect in any way but if all 5 of your children are limiting contact (mainly with mum) then there is something wrong. My older brother’s young adult children don’t even want to be around my parents (mainly mum)

Your argument seems to be that because no one can make perfectly ethical choices in an imperfect world we shouldn't draw ethical boundaries within our own families. I don't agree and that is alright we can simply have different beliefs and I am open to hearing others, I’m not saying I have the best view of perspective

Well I guess you were just looking for people to say ‘well done, good job’ about a drip feed situation with your parents without acknowledging your life choices are more to blame for any racist ideology your children internalise.

Look around and pay attention to what your children are seeing every day. Who are the cleaners and nannies in their school and their friends’ homes? How many children do they socialise with who aren’t rich? What do people you socialise with say about those from the country you’re colonising? I really think you’re fighting the wrong battle here. Avoiding people for not being wealthy is just as gross as avoiding people for being black.

But you aren’t going to change your life or your mind so I think you were just here for validation. Fine. Great. Never speak to your boring parochial parents again. Prop up a country and society most people find abhorrent and enjoy your jet set life.

Dubai as a country/culture is a lot, lot more racist than Britain.

they absolutely are going to be exposed to racism if they live in Dubai, and in the lived experience type of racism not the making a few comments type of racism.

obviously you can cut your parents off if you like but they’ll see much worse in Dubai

Not necessarily. I came here for perspective and I’ve had some interesting perspectives that have made me think.

Some have moved from discussing whether it's reasonable to set boundaries with family members who repeatedly express prejudiced views to making assumptions about my entire life my children's upbringing and my motives.

That's a different argument altogether.
I haven't claimed moral perfection. In fact, I've repeatedly acknowledged that the country we live in has serious human rights issues. Recognising that complexity isn't the same as endorsing it.

What I find interesting is the implication that because none of us can make perfectly ethical choices in an imperfect world we're somehow not entitled to draw ethical boundaries in our personal lives. I don't accept that logic.

Parents make value judgements every day about the people they expose their children to. We can't control every influence our children will encounter but we can decide what we choose to normalise within our own family. That's the decision I've made.

You also seem to be treating all prejudice as interchangeable. Structural injustices within a society and repeated racist comments from close relatives are both serious issues but they're not mutually exclusive and shouldn’t be compared. Being concerned about one doesn't require me to ignore the other.

I wasn't looking for validation. I was interested in hearing different perspectives. Some people have challenged my thinking thoughtfully, and I've agreed with several points. What I don't find persuasive is the suggestion that because my life contains moral complexities as most people’s I should simply tolerate racism from those closest to my children. That doesn't follow to me.

I have family who moved to America, a country built on slavery and racism. No one bats an eyelid if someone says they’re moving to America ? Belgium similar no one would really mention Congo if I said I moved to Belgium. I personally do not believe the west to me isn’t morally superior to the east.

I worked in China for some time, aren’t Uyghurs still being mistreated. I worked in Australia for a few years too…Aboriginal/indigenous communities suffer on going inequalities single everyday no one ever questioned. If I still lived in Aus no one would mention this. I personally do not think any country is free from historical injustices or present day inequalities and injustices as well as human rights violations.

I did not come here to say I am better than my parents at all or that I’m right in my beliefs or perspectives. I wanted other perspectives too. My children do have friends from everywhere from Australian, French to Bahamas etc and it would hurt them to know what their grandma thinks of their friends who aren’t white especially the ones born in England with generations of family born England. Somehow seen less British than my children who aren’t even born in England.

Sorry it uploaded twice

I can’t speak for which country is the least racist. Someone who isn’t white might have a different perspective to me based on their lives experiences.

I do agree the culture in the UAE is definitely racist, classist, misogynistic etc.

I grew up very privileged, privately educated and somewhat sheltered till I travelled and worked in different countries. You’re making assumptions about my parents what makes you think they care about the injustices in UAE? They’ve never once mentioned it, my siblings have but never my parents. They’re in their own privileged village world in Cobham.

You did try to justify it, by saying you didn't have enough opportunity in Britain, so turned instead to a country with an appalling rate of misogyny, homophobia, racism, and modern slavery.

And a pattern of what? What actual harm are they contributing to, other than annoying you with their persistent xenophobic comments? It sounds like they're perfectly polite to those of different races who are around them? Interesting that the fact that apparently all your siblings are cutting them off because they're so horrendously racist (why? Because they assume white = British at the age of 70-something? Or are concerned about cross-cultural marriage?) was only mentioned by you recently, instead of in your OP.

Meanwhile, you're enjoying wealth and privilege that's propped up on racist modern slavery. Perhaps one day your children will decide to cut off contact with you because you knowingly and unapologetically took advantage of slavery in order to make more money.

I'm shocked that so many posters are jumping in to support your parents by saying that they aren't racist, they are just 'old fashioned'.

I would say that your parents, or maybe just your mum, are 'old fashioned' racists. Your mum sounds like she is stuck in the 1950s where people hardly ever saw a non-white face.

Racism in the UK is becoming acceptable again due to the rise of ultra-right wing political parties such as Reforn and Restore and right-wing agitators like Tommy Robinson who is supported and amplified by Elon Musk. They target deprived areas where the narrative is that immigrants are taking their homes and their jobs and that their lives are shit due to immigration. I totally disagree with them but they are being manipulated to blame Muslims, foreigners and black people for the lack of good jobs and decent affordable homes.

Your mum has had a massively privileged life in her Home Counties bubble, untouched by the demographic changes in the UK. She is well educated and well travelled. There is literally no excuse for her bigoted views. If she just wanted you to return to the UK because she missed you and her grandchildren, that would be fine. But her issue is that she doesn't want her grandchildren mixing with non-white children and is panicking that they may choose non-white partners. Her mindset is that non-white people are inferior and to be avoided.

You have made your views very clear, yet she persists in pushing her racist and xenophobic narrative. If you pull away, she only has herself to blame.

Agree this "I don't think they're racist at all" line is very odd. What is racism to you, if not all the things you've listed? Is it reserved for those actually lynching people?

It is vaguely possible that the comments about the partner were more about another pull away from returning to England and settling there, but in context it feels unlikely, and the OP has shared other examples. The comments about the classmates are racist, especially combined with the tone of dismay.

My defence of the parents wasn't on the grounds that this is in any way defensible, but that it can still be tackled and addressed, and best done so while also listening because there is clearly a lot of unhappiness in this relationship at the moment.

Question (becuase this has always fascinated me), not having a go at you:

Do you agree that OP’s parents’ views are way closer to the median global attitude than OP’s are?

If so, do you think those billions of Chinese, Indians, Africans, etc who might have the same conversation are also indefensible?

Or is this a morality just for some people, and if so why?

Of course you have the right to cut off anyone you like for any reason you like. My entire extended family cut me off when I married my husband - because he isn't Jewish. That was fine as I didn't much like them and their bigotry anyway. My life is all the better for it.

I continue to think it's a bizarre take that you can live your life in a culture that thrives on racism but somehow it's worse to hear it out loud. If you are genuinely worried for what your children will internalise, I would be moving far, far away from Dubai! And yes - most countries were founded on slavery, but not all countries happily and unapologetically engage it in today. America isn't perfect by any stretch, and suffers from long-seated and entrenched racism and classism, but it's not literally based on enclaves of people enslaving others in order to avoid paying taxes. Or at least, the part of society that does operate like that is more secretive about it. of course terrible people exist everywhere and we likely all guilty of benefitting from things like Amazon deliveries and fast fashion, but my day to day life isn't rooted in separation and privilege.

What I will say is that how you live is far, far more important than what they may or may not hear from a grandparent. I pay lots and lots of tax in Scotland. I go on litter pics and volunteer at the PTA and the food bank with my daughter (and my son when he's older of course) and my children have friends from any number of ethnic backgrounds and socioeconomic situations. I will never be wealthy, but my kids will be rooted in an expectation of participation and hard work and contributing to the society they benefit from.

I think it is gross to worry about the skin colour of your children's slpartners, yes. I know this happens in other countries too but the world is a racist place. I don't see why that makes things better. My own family has mixed marriage heritage going back much longer than most, but also suffered rifts and prejudices because of it.

Worrying about cultural differences between your offspring and their partners and loss of your own heritage is arguably a more acceptable concern but really not your parents' or grandparents' business. Children live their own lives and choose their own partners and abuse is the only reason for stepping in.

Obviously that's my view shaped by my own cultural context, values and upbringing, but you asked for my view. I think that to the extent that there is a British culture worth fighting for, it should include shared values of racial and religious tolerance.