To think this stance is hypocritical?

[SorcererGaheris]

This is in relation to one particular individual, although I am also aware of it as a broader thing.

Not so long ago I had an interaction with a FB acquaintance in which he stated, among other things - "I intend to do harm to the occult community." As an occultist myself, I am part of this community, and naturally don't like the idea of people actively trying to harm it/us. So I questioned him about his attitude.

(NB - he is not religious, he is a completely secular philosophical materialist, who disdains everything mystical or spiritual. That in itself is not an issue - people are entitled to personal opinions and personal disdain - but when people actively say they want to cause harm to myself and my community, that is a different thing entirely.)

Where I think he is hypocritical is in the fact that he is a champion of diversity, equal rights and minority rights. He himself is an ethnic minority where he lives and speaks out about prejudice and hatred towards racial minorities, LGBT, etc.

If someone is genuinely committed to diversity, then surely that diversity should encompass everyone? Every group/community?

A world without occultists is a LESS diverse world. Advocating for the (at best) marginalisation (or at worst, elimination) of occultists is in direct conflict with the values that he appears to hold.

I don't see how someone who champions diversity can desire to do harm to the occult community, and promote its marginalisation, without being hypocritical.

I should perhaps also add that he said to me that he believes "all occultists do harm" - which is palpably ridiculous.

This kind of prejudice and ignorance is unbecoming from anyone, but to me, it cuts even harder when it comes from someone who is actually intelligent and compassionate in other areas.

Of course you can't be tolerant of everything just because you believe in diversity. 'Racists? Oh it's just an opinion! Homophobic - entitled to their views!'

Google the paradox of tolerance.

@geraniums111

That's not an apt comparison. Racists and homophobes, as a group, promote bigotry and hatred (and sometimes) take hateful and bigoted actions.

Occultists, as a group, are not promoting bigotry and hatred or harming other people.

There is no valid reason not to be tolerant of occultists.

Occultists, as a group, are not promoting bigotry and hatred or harming other people.

I should perhaps also add that he said to me that he believes "all occultists do harm"

What harm does he believe they do, out of interest?

@VimesandhisCardboardBoots

Occultists are a diverse group of people with varied views, and there isn't one way to think or one specific tradition or practice.

I think I can quite confidently say that it is a fact that occultists are not universally and collectively (as an entire group) promoting hatred and bigotry. Individuals might do, but that's them individually.

Have you got reason to believe that all occultists are collectively promoting bigotry? Because I am an occultist and I can say that I certainly don't.

Agree Op, he sounds awful, it's narrow minded at best.

If he was a Christian, then his proclamation may not be so out of place.

How exactly does he intend to reek his vengeance?

@gotmyselfintoapickle

He seems to think that by our very existence, all occultists do harm to the way people collectively understand the world.

I think that's a rather silly view to take. As occultists, many of us certainly do have a different view of the workings of the world (in some ways) than non-occultists. We believe in and practice magic, for example.

But that doesn't impact the way that non-occultists view how the world works. It's not like we hold any influence over the beliefs of non-occultists, and we don't wish to, either. Most non-occultists would just ignore our views and carry on with their own understanding of the world, which is absolutely what they should do.

@Silverbirchleaf

He's not a Christian. He's a secular philosophical materialist.

@Silverbirchleaf

How exactly does he intend to reek his vengeance?

I don't think it can really be called vengeance, since occultists haven't done anything to hurt him personally.

I'm not sure how he intends to go about it, but he certainly seems happy to spread bigotry against occultists, so I suppose that's one way of doing it. He also told me that he thought it was acceptable for occultists to be victims of bullying, prejudice and discrimination.

I don't know anything about occultists but I presume they do their own practices amongst themselves to demonstrate their beliefs. If it doesn't impact on anyone outside of it or anything non consenting then it's just someone else's life.

I guess you should just block that person if they strongly disagree with your spiritual beliefs. And report them if you think it's hate speech.

@BillieWiper

I don't know anything about occultists but I presume they do their own practices amongst themselves to demonstrate their beliefs.

That's more or less spot on.

If it doesn't impact on anyone outside of it or anything non consenting then it's just someone else's life.

As occultists, we believe that the spells we do can potentially impact others (if they're directed at another individual) but secular materialists are naturally not objecting on that end, because they do not believe that magic is real, thus they do not believe our spells have any impact on anything/anyone whatsoever. So that aspect is a moot point for them.

I guess you should just block that person if they strongly disagree with your spiritual beliefs. And report them if you think it's hate speech.

I've Unfollowed him. It's not his disagreement in itself that bothers me, it's the fact that he actively wants to cause harm to the community. People can think the occult is a load of rubbish, by far the majority do, I'm used to that - but when they say they want to harm us, that's where it crosses a line. When they say that it's acceptable for us to be victims of bullying and prejudice, that crosses a line.

Thank you. It's interesting to hear about it. I'd hope you wouldn't try and do spells to cause someone permanent harm? Though I can think of a few public figures I wouldn't mind if something fairly awful happened to them. 🤣
You can do a spell for me if you like, a positive one? ☺️

If he doesn't believe in the magic and isn't religious then I can't see how he would think an occultist would do any more harm than a person of religion. As far as he is concerned it is all made up twaddle. Maybe he does deep down believe the spells might be real!

@BillieWiper

I'd hope you wouldn't try and do spells to cause someone permanent harm?

I personally probably wouldn't, but occultism is diverse and encompasses numerous practices and traditions, so as such there is no particular moral code that applies to it as a field. Specific occult orders/groups might have a moral code they abide by, but they alone would be bound by that code, and only for as long as they were members of that group.

It's really considered entirely down to the individuals to form their own moral views and make their own moral decisions. Some occultists would indeed do a spell intended to cause serious harm to someone if they felt it necessary to protect themselves/others.

I don't really know what an occultist is, to be honest, but I don't think any group should be immune from criticism. The person doing the criticising will often say it is fair criticism, while the person being criticised will often call it bullying/prejudice. We see this across many groups. We should all make efforts to both give and receive criticism fairly and gracefully.

What magic have you done successfully?

How the hell (other netherworlds are available), has he managed to get worked up about occultists of all things? It reminds me a bit of Stewart Lee's Quaker routine, or the mad lady in Father Ted who can't stand the Greeks for some unknown reason.

@takealettermsjones

I didn't say that occultists should be immune from criticism. That's not what this thread is about.

This is about occultists being harmed and marginalised. Occultists do not deserve that.

An occultist is someone who practices occultism. It encompasses a number of different practices - the practice of magic (as in actual magic spells, not stage magic), divination (such as astrology, geomancy, tarot reading), spirit communication, etc, etc.

I know you didn't, but you said that if someone is a champion of diversity and equal rights then they should encompass everyone. And I disagree - with the principle, not with respect to occultists specifically, about whom I know very little, as I said.

@FudgeFudy

I suspect it is because he is a staunch materialist (of the philosophical kind, not the consumerist kind.) Some of them can be very hostile to anything and everything that is even vaguely mystical, spiritual...he's openly disdainful of Tarot cards, even when people are simply reading the cards for themselves and their friends as a private thing.

I think he views all occultists as innately irrational and perhaps he feels that we contribute to what he views as society-wide as irrational thinking. I obviously disagree with that on both counts, and I think it is exceptionally strange for him to think that occultists, a very tiny minority, have such an impact on society at large. We simply don't.

In fairness, he is not a fan of organised religion either, but he seems to be more tolerant of religious moderates than he is to those who practice occultism.

@takealettermsjones

Perhaps I should re-word/re-frame it, then, my initial wording was not necessarily the best.

I think that anyone who champions diversity should ideally encompass all groups that are not collectively spreading prejudice and hatred. Racists and homophobes would of course not be covered by this, but occultists, who as a collective group, are not spreading hatred and trying to take away other people's rights (you never see groups of occultists trying to ban abortion, for example) should be included in diversity.

To be prejudiced and exclusionary towards occultists (a group that isn't collectively spreading hatred and intolerance) seems hypocritical. There is no just reason to exclude us from diversity.

A world without occultists would be less diverse. So preferring our elimination is antithetical to the values of diversity.

@chirrupybird

I believe that some of my sigil magic has been successful.

I also did a ritual to evoke and communicate with Mercury (a deity associated with communication) to request that he influence/cause a friend to contact me quickly. Considering I received an email from that very individual not long afterwards, I consider that to be successful.

So, pretending all this isn't utter bollocks for a second.

You did some magic in order perform mind control to make someone contact you? How exactly would that be non-harmful?