Welfarisation has made people utterly entitled and unable to take responsibility for themselves and their families.

[hagchic]

I grew up in a working class family. The values I was taught were that you stood on your own two feet and it was no one else's job to do what you could do for yourself.

If you were hurt, you were expected to get up and go and clean yourself up - and stop whining about it unless it was actually serious. If you were ill, you went to bed and if you were lucky some magic lucozade appeared.

If you were sad, then you were sad. If life was unfair then that was just how life was and you needed to deal with it.

You never ever sought charity or took benefits when you were able to work or put up with less. You lived to your own means, not to what you saw on TV or at school - and if you wanted that lifestyle it was up to you to get it.

Today everyone has the expectation that someone must help them, that they are obliged to help them - even before they have made any attempt to actually do the work of helping themselves. They expect luxuries like holidays, pets, new clothes and treats when they do nothing to earn this.

I think self sufficiency is a value that needs to return to our society.

This!

God forbid that disabled people be supported for life by benefits such as DLA and PIP.

Not sure you got the jist of my post….

One word.

Muckamore.

but that doesn’t suit the narrative.

Did you by any chance live in a paper bag in the middle of the street OP? "Paper bag! You were lucky!"

Fuck my life no wonder they passed assisted suicide bill

Not in the UK they didn't.

we need a return to pre-welfare state days and we need to do away with the NHS because people just assume that somebody else will bale them out. We need alternatives which don’t make it pay to be a wastrel. Too many people have no self-respect.
However, there would need to be a safety net for those who genuinely need support.

I'm here @Bbcsounds but I'm not responding to you because you do nothing but focus on your own issues and put words into my mouth that I have not said.

I am not interested in people's individual situations.

I am interested in how society views responsibility and self sufficiency.

I can’t even GET private health insurance. I was entitled to it via work in a previous role and I couldn’t get any of my pre-existing conditions covered. What safety net would I have if the NHS is done away with?

It would be refreshing to read a discussion that clearly isn't directed at people with disabilities without someone immediately derailing the thread with, "So you think disabled people are scroungers?" or "So you think I should have been left to die?" or other such nonsense.

You do realise that not every discussion is about you, don't you?
People should be able to debate the trials of modern life, statistics, policy and public spending without the conversation being disingenuously hijacked and turned into something it was never about.

So I make you uncomfortable because I’m that person. Right here in front of you and you haven’t the balls to address me directly.

Cowardly.

No most people are not talking about people who are genuinely disabled, theyre talking about the ones who fake mental illness and disability to get out of work.
Don't get why people like to pretend they dont exist and play the system. There are families who have never worked a day in their lives just lived on child benefit and kept having more babies.

in times pre victorian era it was down to different types of chairties and the chuch etc to help, bit of a lottery at times

I'm sorry your upbringing sounds very harsh and unsympathetic.

I hope you never have to find out the hard way how difficult it actually is to live on benefits if you find yourself unable to work.

Thanks for the lols 😝

It's not nonsense. And yes, people can put their own respective experiences in. Others are allowed to have opinions, you know. Oh of course, it's Mumsnet...(!)

I know. I’ve actually done an academic piece on chartered charitable institutions pre-1900.

But you've turned the thread massively into all about you when the OP was not talking about people with disabilities.

Hard disagree - that, mixed with the NI and pension requirements employers now have is why there are so few entry level jobs

So pip isn’t a welfare benefit?

What a stupid attitude. Fine, suffer if you like, but there's nothing big or clever about it.

Only a fool would say such a thing. To return to pre welfare state days.

No social housing of any sort.
No medical care free at the point of need.
No unemployment benefits.
No childcare money
No social care for older people
No pensions. No national insurance.

Thank god most people would not agree with you.

But are there really loads of families like that?
Isn't the real problem that work doesn't pay enough for people to afford their rent, food & bills so they also claim benefits to get by or just can't afford to take jobs which are often unstable or badly paid so have to keep claiming?

The real problems with benefits are not the life long benefit claimants of which I imagine there are far fewer than we are led to believe.
BUT when Labour raised the NM wage to help mitigate this they were criticised for it. 🤷‍♀️

The OP was referring to those who have problems, and yes they do include disabilities. She was referring to benefits, which disabled people are usually in receipt of (!)

It's nonsense when it has nothing to do with what the OP was actually talking about. The discussion is about resilience and self sufficiency, ironically two things the welfare state was introduced to encourage. YABVU if you expect disability to be the center of every discussion.

Don't derail the conversation by inventing arguments that nobody made and then demanding people defend them.