Welfarisation has made people utterly entitled and unable to take responsibility for themselves and their families.

[hagchic]

I grew up in a working class family. The values I was taught were that you stood on your own two feet and it was no one else's job to do what you could do for yourself.

If you were hurt, you were expected to get up and go and clean yourself up - and stop whining about it unless it was actually serious. If you were ill, you went to bed and if you were lucky some magic lucozade appeared.

If you were sad, then you were sad. If life was unfair then that was just how life was and you needed to deal with it.

You never ever sought charity or took benefits when you were able to work or put up with less. You lived to your own means, not to what you saw on TV or at school - and if you wanted that lifestyle it was up to you to get it.

Today everyone has the expectation that someone must help them, that they are obliged to help them - even before they have made any attempt to actually do the work of helping themselves. They expect luxuries like holidays, pets, new clothes and treats when they do nothing to earn this.

I think self sufficiency is a value that needs to return to our society.

Hi there.

We're just popping on here to remind you all of our Talk Guidelines. We've noticed things getting a bit spiky, so take a breath and step back from the personal stuff. Disagree all you like, but keep it about the subject rather than each other. Thanks for helping keep this a place people actually want to be.

Best wishes.
Faye
MNHQ.

The biggest issue I see is the disconnect on where the money comes from to pay for such benefits.

The Government itself doesn't have money, it's money comes from taxpayers (individuals and companies).

It's taking money from some people to give to other people. So it's making some people poorer in order to make others better off.

Now I get that there is a need for taxation to pay for things that only the Government can provide (roads, police, judiciary, defence etc). But by taxing people who work so heavily and paying people who don't work then don't be surprised when there are less people working.

Ultimately if on benefits and you receive an inheritance or fortunate win - then I feel you should stop claiming in the interim. No one is saying that you can't restart a claim even it does cause a lot of hassle. Just do as other PP have suggested and keep your receipts as proof of reasonable expenditure - if you are using the money to support your day to day living because you no longer (in the interim) have benefits to live on then that too is a reasonable expense. Is the DWP really so difficult?

And therein lies the issue. It’s a topic that needs to be addressed, but as soon as it’s mentioned the ‘whataboutery’ starts. Of course people whose disability or condition severely limits their lives must be supported, no one would suggest otherwise.

However, the parameters appear to have widened enormously as to what constitutes eligibility, and there is so much information as to how to claim, it’s hardly surprising the costs have escalated.

society needs a new economic system one thats not based on profit but one thats based on building society

The DWP is, to quote journalist and critically acclaimed author John Pring, a "Violent Government Bureaucracy" that has been shown to be directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of disabled and low income people through suicide notes, coroner's reports and their own records. I highly recommend his book The Department if you want to get an idea of what many disabled people have to deal with in their day to day lives if they're forced to rely on welfare. It's a deliberate "hostile environment" approach to dissuade as many people as possible from claiming but the problem they have is that the rate of genuine disability is so high due to our poor medical services people have no choice. If you've been blessed with the ability to earn an income high enough to live off through working you should count yourself incredibly lucky. I've heard disabled people saying it's like being tied to an abusive ex that you can never be free of - they have ultimate power over you and can choose to cut off all or part of your income on a whim for any or no reason at all (and you may have to fight for years to get it reinstated if they've acted illegally which they frequently do).

Yip. It’s an awful process to have to go through, claiming PIP. You have to sit down and write all the ways you’re disabled. All the humiliation. All the things you can’t do. How crap you are.

And THEN you get an assessor who lies about what you said and did at the appointment and have to go to MR (not me, a friend who I accompanied) and loads of folk even have to go to tribunal where over 70% of people are awarded despite having been refused twice by dwp by that point.

That is what happens anyway (if the inheritance/win pushes your capital over £16K)

Asking for help is not shameful.
Asking for help does not make you a failure.
Im proud to be part of a society that helps people up the ladder instead of shunning them for being less fortunate.
Im so sorry you had a childhood in which assistance was seen as a personal disgrace.

Sorry what's UBI?

Universal Basic Income. Probably going to be needed given AI is coming for so many jobs although who knows how they will fund it. I doubt anyone will get very much.

Universal Basic Income

When it has been trialled it has led to more productivity and ambition rather than less because it takes away the fear of taking the plunge and getting a different job, taking a job in the first place or undergoing training.

And as the costs rise, so does the need to increase taxation.

Of course everyone in receipt of such benefits suggests that someone else should pay for them, such as "lets tax the rich ", with the rich being defined as anyone earning 25% more than them. Or "let's tax companies", rather than "let's increase VAT" which would affect everyone.

The problem with increasing taxation is that it slows the economy, discourages work and has side effects such as non doms leaving the UK or doctors reducing their hours because of tax bands.

It's easy to ask for more Government benefits or more Government spending when you don't actually have to pay for it.

I pay higher rate tax and im happy to do so. I also receive benefits (pip And I got child benefit when my kids were younger).I’ve never once said that the people who should pay more in tax are those earning 25% more than me.

I pay via PAYE what is due to the government and I have honestly never grudged a penny of it.

The benefits bill is so high because the cost of essentials, and especially housing, is now high. All of that money going to private landlords…not a great use of taxpayers money, and hardly the fault of benefit recipients.

No it hasn't. Wherever it's been trialled it's been abandoned.

UBI at at least average wages will have to come if AI and robotics takes as many jobs as it looks as if it will, otherwise all the stuff being made by AI and robotics will have nobody able to buy it and the world economy will collapse.

The interim period where companies adjust to paying massive taxes to fund UBI is likely to be ....... interesting 🤔.

It has never been fully adopted by a nation that's true, but various UBI trials have shown there can be significant benefits to such a scheme.

It is an idea that is currently gaining interest and traction around the world especially with the worries over AI replacing jobs.

I don't believe there is a single one which has shown benefits and been continued, never mind extended out of a limited trial.

I've been following the trials pretty avidly as it has to happen at some point. But the driver is going to have to be the need for businesses to have customers with money. Experience of various countries so far has shown that if you offer people the chance not to work or to work less, they grab it with both hands, and who can blame them?

Yes - unsurprisingly it does nothing to encourage employment:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47169549?app-referrer=deep-link

Disability benefits. I’m an ex disability outreach worker and benefits advisor. Can’t remember the issue but there was a definite disagreement !!

I disagree. There are some
peope who deserve more but not everyone.
There are people who could work but are better off on benefit and that’s wrong.

No one who is not working is better off than someone who is, if you compare like for like.