Welfarisation has made people utterly entitled and unable to take responsibility for themselves and their families.

[hagchic]

I grew up in a working class family. The values I was taught were that you stood on your own two feet and it was no one else's job to do what you could do for yourself.

If you were hurt, you were expected to get up and go and clean yourself up - and stop whining about it unless it was actually serious. If you were ill, you went to bed and if you were lucky some magic lucozade appeared.

If you were sad, then you were sad. If life was unfair then that was just how life was and you needed to deal with it.

You never ever sought charity or took benefits when you were able to work or put up with less. You lived to your own means, not to what you saw on TV or at school - and if you wanted that lifestyle it was up to you to get it.

Today everyone has the expectation that someone must help them, that they are obliged to help them - even before they have made any attempt to actually do the work of helping themselves. They expect luxuries like holidays, pets, new clothes and treats when they do nothing to earn this.

I think self sufficiency is a value that needs to return to our society.

I have seen the article previously. It is largely just a collection of random numbers. It doesn't mention all age categories, nor does it tell you how people are paying for those holidays, or what their employment or benefit status is.
In short, it doesn't tell you anything other than that certain age groups take a lot of holidays. It's hardly rocket science to work out that many of those taking the most holidays are not necessarily the highest earners.

Why do we need to tax people more? Is tax more important than growth? At what point do we stop arguing about how to divide the pie and start talking about how to make it bigger?

And how do we square people spending more now with the need to save for later life in order to minimise dependence on the state once they retire? We have being told that most people are not putting enough in their pensions. If people are being criticised for saving and investing, who is going to fund their retirement in the future if they stop?

We did this this year, last year and the year before. Min wage has gone up 40%+ in 5 years. The result is more unemployment and a complete disincentive to get the promotion that pays 20p an hour more or even the professional degree level qualification that pays £3.50/hour more. For context the difference between a band 2 hca and a band 5 nurse in 2005 was £2.51/hour. In 2026/7 it’s £3.48 because min wage rises have consistently and spectacularly outstripped professional wages. An hca could aspire to get a 42% pay increase and train for free in 2005. In 2026 it’s 27% plus student loan. We need to massively normalise upskilling and getting better paid work and working longer hours if you want a min wage job. Paying people professional level wages to do basic shit part time is not reasonable.

What?

How do you know? Have you taken a poll? And that’s just one small example of how people are treated.
Do we apply that same logic in this country?

I’ve already explained why you’re wrong. Please stop lying. Thanks.

threatening to dox someone isnt a good look. It does you no favours.

I’ve already highlighted both these things. please stop. You are harassing me and deliberately goading me and lying about my motivations so please stop.

One, I didn’t even reply to you and 2. I have no idea what you are talking about in terms of threatening you, and what’s a dox? Think you have the wrong person.

You keep referring to me. Please stop.

you did you said there were going to be new reports about people like me.

please don’t refer to me again. You have harassed me on this thread and you continue to lie. I am leaving the thread. Please don’t refer to me or quote me or tag me. You are wrong about my motivations and your behaviour towards me has been abhorrent. Please leave me alone.

Thank you.

As a business owner, it really pisses me off when people glibly say about raising minimum wage. We run a small company with 6 full time staff - we had 8 last year but had to let 2 go because of the wage increase. It's not just the unskilled workers who get a payrise, you have to give everyone else the same percentage increase. Add on NI, pension contributions, tax .... it is crippling. There is always a ceiling as to what we can charge our customers. The more we charge, the less work we bring in.

Every increase just leads to more unemployment. We need someone who has run a private business in charge, not pen pushers who went to Eton.

Welfarisation is the process or policy of transforming a public service. It typically shifts support from being a universal right or a long-term "home for life" into a highly restricted, temporary "ambulance service" available only to the most vulnerable.

I think you mean the exact opposite of this OP

Right but when disabled people point out that the scenario someone says doesn’t work because of X Y and Z the response is always “I didn’t mean you”. But it would affect me or someone like me as the line would have to be drawn somewhere.

exactly.

👏👏👏

Many people have said the same thing … you should really review your original post to understand how this all started. Maybe think
before you type next time.

I'm as lefty as they come and sadly I agree.

Absolutely. We've had several generations of work shy lazy bastards. A lot of my parents generation, my own mother, my friends parents, exs parents have never had a job. Completely reliant on benefits and made up illnesses. My own generation, I have acquaintances who lie and cheat, claim mental illness, anxiety, depression, so as not to work. These people are not mentally ill. I'd go as far as to say the people I know who are out grafting daily, paying their own mortgage/rent and bills are a far sight more depressed than any of these lazy fuckers. I parent my kids similarly to how your parents raised you. Life can be hard, but we get up and get on with it. Nobody is coming to save you. You work hard, you make your own way in life, I'll help you when I can, there will be highs and lows, it's down to you and your attitude whether you bounce back or not. My kids are young teenagers, not yet of legal working age, but already use their own initiative to make money when they want it, and I am so proud of them. They are not shy to get stuck in whether its doing my garden, or a neighbours, gritting paths in winter for the odd fiver, they appreciate that you work hard to earn nice things. They've grown up with a single mother who juggled child care, being a present parent, and shift work to make birthdays and Christmases happen. They understand it can be hard, but also rewarding. They appreciate what they get and what they have, they take care of their belongings, because I've taught them the value of them. I am very proud of them both, and I do expect them to become functioning adults in a few years time. But I am seeing so many children following the example of their parents where they expect everything handed to them, know the price of everything but the value of nothing, and when they don't get what they want they kick off, royally.

Haha I'll try the same with my brain see if I can't get rid of the Epilepsy 😂

This sounds like my colleague who used to say “when I worked in a factory all the women got tea for the men, if you got wolf whistled you took it as a compliment, we had to wear high heels, all this women’s rights malarkey is ridiculous.”

Just because one generation suffered doesn’t mean everyone has to. And people who grow up in abusive situations normalise that abuse but the outside observer can see that quietly suffering isn’t noble or something to emulate.

I’m sorry OP had such a hard time growing up. But that’s not a good thing. It’s not how things should be.

I have seen the article previously. It is largely just a collection of random numbers

It's very much not just a collection of random numbers. It's a professional market research survey carried out by a professional market research company that has worked with many high calibre clients including The National Trust, British Airways and The Open University.

It doesn't mention all age categories,

I mean, technically, there are an infinite number of age categories so it would be impossible to mention every possibly grouping but it's pretty broad ranging and specific if you read the full report.

nor does it tell you how people are paying for those holidays, or what their employment or benefit status is.

You can't seriously be suggesting that large numbers of people who are unemployed or who claim benefits are going on 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8 holidays a year?! They are averages for each age group which will represent the fact that the average person works and does not claim benefits, but yes they will be brought down by the least well off in each category. If you removed people on benefits and/or low incomes from the equation the numbers would probably be even higher.

In short, it doesn't tell you anything other than that certain age groups take a lot of holidays.

It tells us that MOST age groups take A LOT of holidays and that we are not a poor country full of people who couldn't possibly be expected to pay a bit more tax so we can have a functional NHS and disabled people can afford to buy food and other basic necessities.

It's hardly rocket science to work out that many of those taking the most holidays are not necessarily the highest earners.

While every individual's situation is going to be slightly different, I can see no reason to assume that the average lower earner or person on benefits is going on vastly more holidays than the average higher earner. I live in a fairly middle class part of the country and all the people I know on medium to high incomes go away at more or less every opportunity. Those that I know on low incomes or benefits rarely go away at all.

And they say a good education is never wasted.

I’ll never forget my grandmother telling me that she cried when the NHS was introduced because it meant her daughter, my mum, would be able to have her babies in hospital. My dirt poor granny and her friends had to assist each other when they gave birth and had babies who died because they couldn’t afford doctors.

The welfare state is a wonderful thing but today it is taken for granted because most people can’t remember what it was like before it existed. But it needs huge reform and more focus on delivering what is essential.

What is your understanding of moderate disability? What level of impairment would you expect someone who might be described as moderately disabled to have?

And why are pensioners being allowed to retire when they are still able to organise and go on holidays? Most of the pensioners I know go away multiple times a year - do we need to tell people that they need to keep working until they become unable to organise and go on a holiday? If not why do they get state money when they could be working to earn it?

Why do we need to tax people more? Is tax more important than growth? At what point do we stop arguing about how to divide the pie and start talking about how to make it bigger?

We can't grow the economy when so many people are in such poor health and having an NHS and public infrastructure that lets people down at every turn is not helping that. Surely that isn't rocket science.

And how do we square people spending more now with the need to save for later life in order to minimise dependence on the state once they retire? We have being told that most people are not putting enough in their pensions. If people are being criticised for saving and investing, who is going to fund their retirement in the future if they stop?

Obviously pension saving needs to be obligatory where possible. I've never heard of anyone being criticised for saving or investing!

Well if the line was drawn at £150k single income and that affected you then I would say that it should affect you.

But what about decency and compassion for those that are working to pay the taxes that are needed to pay for the benefits. What about the mother and father that got up at 6 am this morning to start work at 8 am, which meant that her 9 year old daughter had to make her own breakfast, get her self dressed and walked to school?

What about the 9 year old daughter that will come home to an empty house this afternoon because her parents are still working and not back until 6pm?

What about this family that has to be frugal with food and electricity because of the tax they pay in order to fund welfare benefits.

Where is the compassion for this? Money for benefits doesn't just magically appear, it comes from taking it from ordinary working families.

A few things:

• going abroad with children under 5 can be incredibly cheap. Tui has holidays from £159 pp broad
• the biggest difference between myself and my neighbours in state housing a few doors down in this I get to go on holiday. If I don't have that, I'll just go on benefits frankly and have more time with kids! Most workers will think the same as me.