To not allow SEN referral for DS?

[FernFaery]

DS has recently turned 3. He changed nurseries 6 months ago. His old nursery sang his praises, and he never had any issues there. Since joining the new one, we’ve had a steady stream of the following complaints:

1. He doesn’t listen
2. He’s hyperactive
3. He hits/bites
4. His attention span is short

I realise the above sounds awful. He never bit or hit at his last nursery, and has been badly bitten himself at the new one on a handful of occasions - at one point 3 times in a week.

He has good days or even weeks and it can be some time between complaints. At home he’s energetic and sometimes fights with his sister, but he never seems ‘angry’ and isn’t hard to distract or bring down during a tantrum. He is physical and would rather be outside or climbing/running, but he can spend a good hour at a time playing with plastic animals, doing jigsaws and enjoys sitting and reading lots of stories. His speech and motor skills are really good. He never hits or bites me or DH, or any other adult while we are there. He’s also very nice with his friends at play dates and I’ve never seen him act aggressively.

I can’t decide if this is a DS issue or a nursery issue and we should move him. While I know additional support can’t hurt, the programme involves a series of meetings and goals and I am so utterly swamped with work, studying, learning to drive and a time consuming disability I have myself. I feel like I’m drowning.

If your child was ever in this position what happened? I feel so drained by it. I realise I might sound ‘in denial’ but honestly he’s fine outside of nursery and his behaviour gives me no cause for concern (he has a 7 year old sister too).

I’m just puzzled as DS is happy, sociable, sleeps and eats well, has no problem with transitions etc yet everyone will just insist it’s autism and say ‘yes well X and Y can still mean he’s autistic’ - it really feels like I could say anything about him and somebody will say I’m in denial and he’s autistic.

He’s definitely an energetic child and I’m sure his listening and concentration aren’t as great as some in the room, but this afternoon he sat and played with his Lion King toys fairly silently for a full half hour on the floor. He also did the same with colouring. And whenever he plays with other kids he’s quite deferential to them even if they’re younger. I’m just struggling to see what isn’t normal.

The only thing I can think of is that he gets ‘high’ in a class setting with lots of kids - he LOVES other children and his ‘friends’ and becomes excitable quickly. And that’s probably different to home.

Well, most (not all) mothers I meet are vaguely aware of "typical" development (and have been through 2 year checks etc) and development which could suggest autism.

This is a 3 year old little boy where there have never been concerns anywhere else except this one new setting. Even if he is potential high masking, (very) low support needs autistic, it is perfectly reasonable to adopt a wait and see approach at 3 if that is what the family wants. The nursery have raised their concerns, it's not wrong that the family don't want to explore this now.

We don't all do things the same way, and not all autistic people want a diagnosis or interventions.

Not all paid professionals are actually experts either, some do get it really wrong 😬

This reminds me of my own thread - this one:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/gifted_and_talented/4517797-Bright-child-has-no-friends-at-preschool?page=18

SO many people telling me child was autistic (see my update years later). There is a was absolutely nothing wrong with him. The nursery got it wrong. Yes fhey see a lot of kids but they don’t know everything!

Nothing “wrong.” Jesus wept.

How interesting, I just had a quick scan and can see parallels. I think DS is quite bright (not precociously so, but he is 3y3m and can count to 10, recognise numbers, and say sentences like ‘I think this monkey is the smaller monkey’s mummy’). He’s got really good fine and gross motor skills and is really interested in lots of things.

My gut feeling is he gets carried away in a crowd, overexciteable and this affects his listening skills. He’s generally quite desperate to be liked and does try to make people laugh/engage with him which tbh can be a bit annoying at times. His last nursery was smaller and I think fewer children gave him less opportunities to do this. But when he plays with kids he’s actually quite passive and tends to agree to whatever they want to play.

OP your whole post is about the nursery wanting to refer him to SEN! How can you be so shocked or offended that we may suggest the possibility of autism.

Theyre not referring him for assessment, it’s support with his listening and concentration. And, shock horror, not ALL Sen is autism. The two aren’t synonymous and your post proves how out of hand this belief has got.

Again. Do you have to pay extra for this programme?! Is it just a way of extracting more cash from families?!
The fact they appear to have a quota of children put forward for this from each year group, to me, says it’s a money-making exercise not a needs-driven exercise!

No I don’t pay for it it’s a council lead scheme

Then could this explain it?
They are perhaps friendly with the lady who delivers the service and want her to maximise her income from the council?

Yeah I don’t necessarily think our children sound similar - but the situation is. Ie my DS’s nursery suggested he needed a SEN assessment, I posted on here and had 18 pages of people telling me that nursery know what they’re doing/they see a lot of kids/better to get the ball rolling/parents can’t judge/he’s probably autistic and btw I probably am as well! (All wrong btw).

Your instincts are valid. He’s only 3.

I second the suggestion to get his hearing checked. It’s more challenging to listen in a room with a background of other people talking, than in a one to one situation at home.

I’ve worked with more than one family who have had children with SEN but refused to seek help/advice and wouldn’t see there was an issue.

he might not have SEN, but what harm would extra help do? If he doesn’t then it doesn’t matter, if he does then your school transition could be made 10x easier with early intervention. Generally speaking, nurseries are quite good at spotting issues that not all parents can.

I didn't say he has autism, I was simply responding to your comment about memory and autism because I think you have the link between the two wrong.

Don't worry, OP, I'm sure your son is fine.
I've known many, many children around the world and UK seems to be an outlier in such a way that - because kids start attending school at 4 - kids need to be able to self-regulate, be calm, restrained and have a long attention span - which many are not, because, well, they are just small kids and such skills develop often later, till they are 7 or so. This doesn't happen anywhere else in the world, where kids generally start school at 6-7 years old and up till then they just learn shapes, play with Lego and develop social skills.
So what happens in UK is that small children need to be much more mature when they start school - much more mature than their peers in other countries. And because of this - if they are not mature enough, composed enough, this gets flagged early on and you are make out to believe that something is wrong with your child - even they are is perfectly fine!
So what happens here is pathologisation of normal childhood behaviours. Schools are assessed against certain metrics by Ofsted, so they need to make sure that all children 'are ready for the school' - able to sit at their desk, read and write in Y1. If some children are more active or cannot compose themselves/self-regulate (which is - again - not at all abnormal and doesn't get flagged outside of UK unless it's really, really serious!), they are referred to outside agencies who are paid like 300-500 quid per visit. In order for them to come, Senco must make a referral where they often exaggerate a lot of things, because the teacher often lack necessary training to cope or is unable to alter/adjust their teaching techniques or has created a very rigid curriculum that some (mainly summer-born) children cannot follow. So a child - who would be a perfectly average child in another country - is assessed and referred. Demands are reduced, they get visual help, etc. Again, not because there is something wrong with the child in question, because it's all developmentally on track - but because schools need to make sure that the child in this country is mature enough to sit at desk and work hard aged 5 without crying. Most of techniques just aim to hasten the development that the child achieves anyway as they grow, in their own time).
The problem is that many parents are made to believe that there is something wrong with their child and they panic. They accept all interventions and referrals without questioning them. After 1-2 years parents are pressured to accept SEND register, because the school has already spent 6k quid on different referrals and it just makes a financial sense to them. By that time you have read all about ADHD and autism online and you yourself start doubting your child and believing that something must be wrong. The child makes expected progress in all areas, learns to read, write, etc. but the school insists that they have some emotional problems and they want to refer them for a diagnosis. After 4 years of school 'evidence' a self-fulfilling prophesy becomes real and a child is diagnosed.
Then when they are 25, AI took over and UK economy is in the drain, they get angry and ask you why did you do it, now they cannot work in Canada/Australia/New Zealand/ME because of their diagnosis. You've ruined their life!

Just so you are aware, the setting doesn’t need your permission to code DS as K/record as on the SEN register.

As a mum of a 5 year old boy with ASD diagnosed at 3 - I think its wild to suggest a referral at this age. With my DS it was pretty obvious to me something was different about DS. But from what you have described it sounds like normal behaviour for a 3 year old. My DS went to a private creche to begin with and noone picked up on anything, he went to a montessori nursery age 3 and we had loads of problems there - totally the wrong setting for him and he hated it so we took him out after 4 months. He then went to a small private preschool and no issues there. The right setting makes all the difference. I'm not suggesting resist the referral but I think some initial steps should be taken first to understand what's happening. Ask the nursery to tell you when the incidents are occurring, what's happening before, during and after it happens. Is it out if the ordinary range of behaviour they see in kids? How frequent is it? Does your son still nap, is he getting enough sleep/food etc. Then ask them what they've tried to tackle the behaviour and what suggestions they have. What happens when your DS doesn't listen to an instruction from the staff etc.

Well apparently he had a great day today, listened to everything they said and even offered to help lay the table for snack and gathered his friends at tooth brushing time 🤷‍♀️

Don’t know what to think tbh

They can’t do a referral without your permission just say no and maybe find a new school .

My DS nursery at age 2 prompted an evaluation as they saw he wouldn't sit, wouldn't do circle time, was obsessed with water, had a speech delay etc. He was immediately diagnosed autistic which we were so shocked by. At age 3, almost all of these traits except the giftedness and some speech delay have gone. We had him re-assessed and he would no longer qualify as autistic, but is neurodivergent, basically extremely HFA. When I completed the surveys his sister, who we never assumed was anything but NT ticked a lot of boxes which he didn't, which was surprising. The thing the evaluation did was open up a ton of free services, which really helped his speech and general playing and interactions with other children. It did however also create a permanent record of autism, and i'm on the fence about that for him.

For what it is worth, we changed his school after the one he was at which suggested he get assessed. He flourished in a different, smaller and less regimented environment. His teacher at the first school clearly did not enjoy dealing with him, or toddlers in general. I don't regret moving him, and I also don't regret getting the early intervention which has made a huge amount of difference.

Editing to add, our teacher has children age 3-5 and notes out of 11 children, he is now the only one who does circle time without complaint. So I do think some teacher expectations of ability to focus and be still are unreasonable.

I would move him if he’s getting bitten that many times, thats not typical.

My stand out from your post is the expectation from the nursery to sit still and the number of times he has been bitten. Small children are not designed to sit for extended periods. He also seems to be being bitten a lot. Once or twice is expected with small children, but this seems excessive. I'm not surprised he is acting out.

I would look for a setting with a lot of outdoor activities, such as a forest preschool, and see if that makes a difference. Adhd referral at this age is ridiculous.

He sounds like a normal bright little 3 years old, it's a shame that he had to change nursery when he was obviously settled at the previous one
Getting extra help at the present nursery could be useful, they may get extra funding from the government which is why they refer so many children

I’ve had similar from my nursery - one member of staff (who was also coincidentally the SENCO) was always questioning things and raising concerns, to the point where she tried to suggest he was autistic as he didn’t display any imaginative play (despite us and other staff members having evidence of it). Eventually she asked if she could call our health visitor in to observe with a view to escalating it to the council afterwards. Our hv observed him and adamantly stated that there was no concern, so eventually the staff member stopped. Our hv privately told us that, out of all the nurseries in our area, this one is phoning her almost weekly about unfounded and random concerns about multiple children, and suggested it was very much a nursery issue. I completely agree, as an ex-teacher with a psychology background, that he is not currently exhibiting any concerning behaviour (and I even got my SIL’s opinion as she’s a psychiatrist specialising in ASD).

Could you perhaps ask your hv to observe your LO at his nursery and see what she thinks? They’re technically supposed to offer support until they start school (our observation happened when my son was 3). Obviously I don’t know anything about your LO, but it could easily be related to that particular nursery setting, particularly if his previous one never raised issues.