To not allow SEN referral for DS?

[FernFaery]

DS has recently turned 3. He changed nurseries 6 months ago. His old nursery sang his praises, and he never had any issues there. Since joining the new one, we’ve had a steady stream of the following complaints:

1. He doesn’t listen
2. He’s hyperactive
3. He hits/bites
4. His attention span is short

I realise the above sounds awful. He never bit or hit at his last nursery, and has been badly bitten himself at the new one on a handful of occasions - at one point 3 times in a week.

He has good days or even weeks and it can be some time between complaints. At home he’s energetic and sometimes fights with his sister, but he never seems ‘angry’ and isn’t hard to distract or bring down during a tantrum. He is physical and would rather be outside or climbing/running, but he can spend a good hour at a time playing with plastic animals, doing jigsaws and enjoys sitting and reading lots of stories. His speech and motor skills are really good. He never hits or bites me or DH, or any other adult while we are there. He’s also very nice with his friends at play dates and I’ve never seen him act aggressively.

I can’t decide if this is a DS issue or a nursery issue and we should move him. While I know additional support can’t hurt, the programme involves a series of meetings and goals and I am so utterly swamped with work, studying, learning to drive and a time consuming disability I have myself. I feel like I’m drowning.

If your child was ever in this position what happened? I feel so drained by it. I realise I might sound ‘in denial’ but honestly he’s fine outside of nursery and his behaviour gives me no cause for concern (he has a 7 year old sister too).

I’ve emailed to accept the referral. They said it might not be accepted. I’ve spoken to a few friends and all of them had a similar referral for at least 1 of their kids, so it seems quite common down here. The nursery said it isn’t for social aspects or hitting etc, it’s for his attention skills and listening under the ‘communication’ prime area.

They said to me they refer a ‘number of children’ from the 3 year old group every year, so it sounds that way? And that they get X amount of time from the lady who comes in to work with the kids each week. She doesn’t just visit specifically to see referred kids.

Yes, I agree. I didn’t realise most of my children had ADHD because I was just as crazy hyper as them! I used to love racing them down the road to school.

"I would let them do the referral. If there’s no sen then that will become apparent but if there is he will get appropriate support." I disagree with this actually if you really haven't noticed any potential signs of SEN. Sometimes once the lens of SEN is applied, everything can be seen through that perspective. High energy day? Maybe ADHD. Being a bit inflexible another day? Autism.

Normally, I would advocate for getting on waitlists and early identification etc, but where parents really, really have no concerns, it can kind of funnel some kids into the SEN pipeline.

Edit: phone autocorrect!

If the Nursery just wants to put extra support in place for your DS, because they are concerned about his listening skills/ concentration, I can't understand why you wouldn't want that for him. Unless it is simply that YOU don't have time to engage.
If I were you, I'd start with a hearing test tbh.

Do you know what that has crossed my mind. His speaking voice is loud, he does seem to struggle with quieter sounds and often complains he can’t hear me reading. I’ll book a test.

I also agree with this. I totally get people will read this and roll their eyes thinking ‘denial’. But DD has been at times far more challenging than DS and SEN has never been mentioned. I thought DS was the easier of the two. If he carries on like this I can’t really see him enjoying sitting and learning from a desk but then I think plenty of boys don’t? My brother didn’t but ‘tolerated’ school and is now earning good money in a trade.

hes too young to be assessed for ADHD anyway,,,

There is a flip side to this though.

Not having the correct support but being low needs is very regularly interpreted by teachers as being “average student, bit disengaged” - and that’s just as damaging, probably more so. IF your child has SEN, nobody ever has to know except people who are examining them for academic attainment.

your child is being offered extra help to get ready for reception. Many parents would spend good money or go to great lengths for this kind of program. You should be thrilled it is available.

your attitude that something like adhd is a label that should be avoided is problematic. While it can be used to access services, ultimately the main value of a label is understanding yourself. Many of us actually prefer being neurodivergent.

A year ago I would have said let them refer and see what happens....

However a few months ago I saw a SEN report of a friends child (who is a perfectly articulate child) and now there is zero chance I'd agree to this.
If i hadnt seen it myself id have said what I am about to say is total bullshit so fair enough if im.called a liar....

Friend was essentially orphaned young and so has limited confidence in mothering. The TA who is SEN support who by friends account is very fond of her dd pushed it hard and she agreed.
Her dd is bright alert a good conversationalist academically where she shpuld be and has a good group of friends and is generally happy.

The report floored me.

The report i saw was in my opinion absolutely "reaching" for an autism diagnosis in a perfectly normal child - the report concluded with no diagnosis but a series of suggested "support strategies" and reevaluation in 6m.
the strategies imo essentially positively reinforced autistic behaviour
It also had bullshit like she should role play modelling healthy friendships with friends - wtf even is that??? Its very meta / eats it own tale for an adult let alone a 6yr old child. It encouraged leaving the classroom when ever she felt like it, introducing fidget toys and earmuffs despite noting she doesnt even complain about auditory overload amd her concentration is fine?!?!?
Imo its virtually training a child to display those behaviours so you can diagnose them.

I'd give them a firm "No thank you"

haven't RTFT and I might be leaping but is this a private nursery and does this service cost extra?

And yes, I do think over-diagnosis of mental health conditions in both children and adults is becoming an increasingly big problem in the UK. If you think that makes me ridiculous then I’m fine with that!

I don't think that you are ridiculous @NeonDragon I do think that your opinion is probably ill-informed and judgmental though.

There is no evidence of over-diagnosis. Many stakeholders that actually work in the area will tell you that this narrative just blames the kids that actually need a little help. The real problem is a lack of proper support and of course a lack of funding. But it's much easier to blame the pesky kids with mental health issues, isn't it?

Right ok so this sentence to me speaks volumes. A consequence at home for something that happens at nursery is not going to work with a 3 year old. He is three and won't remember. If he does something wrong at nursery he needs to have the consequence straight away at nursery so for example if he hits another child whilst playing cars then he has to be removed from cars to colouring or whatever. Direct consequence = he gets the message.

You being mortified about it and dishing out consequence at home is just a way for you to make yourself feel better that you are parenting him properly. But for a 3 year old it isn't like that he won't learn from that consequence his brain isn't able to do it. Yes he might repeat 'no pudding because I hit Jack today' but he doesn't really get it.

So my advice is to take any assessment or whatever it is they offer, can't be a bad thing and hopefully you'll just get confirmation that you have a normal 3 year old.

He does remember. He will tell you the name of the child involved and what happened, all corroborated by the nursery.

Are they charging you extra for this ‘service’?
Sounds like an upsell opportunity if you ask me!

so hang on, you want to delay his possible diagnosis... because you are busy?

It’s not an assessment for diagnosis.

And yes I’m busy. With earning money to keep our home and learning to drive so I can actually take them places, plus my own disability which I can’t well just shelve. I suppose that makes me selfish.

He might be able to repeat what has happened and remember it in that respect. 3 year olds are good at keeping mindless facts in their brains. But not at understanding emotions. He isn't understanding that what he does is wrong at 3. If he did he wouldn't repeatedly be hitting would he?

You’re wrong there. He knows what he’s doing is wrong. He can remember what happened. I’m not saying he knows the complexities of the emotions but he knows hitting and biting are wrong. He’s been hit and bitten himself far more than he has done it to others.

He doesn’t ‘repeatedly hit’ either. We’ve had 1 incident of this in the last 3 months.

Mum of 2x AuDHD kids here. Am not sure he’d get a full assessment at this stage for ASD, but that’s not to say it wouldn’t be useful as an interim move or to benchmark for future ones.

However, I suspect the acting out is more likely linked to his having had both a house and nursery move - and possibly a lack of insight and support for this at his current setting. I’d put in a call to his old nursery and have a chat about the behaviours now being reported to make doubly sure that there were no niggling doubts there and then speak to your (new) HV to discuss whether she has any concerns in the light of that conversation and your own observations.

However, I would be very concerned that he is biting himself - that suggests he is very distressed and cannot communicate it to you. For me, I would probably not send him back until spoken to old nursery and HV - and look to change setting.

I never said he was biting himself?? He has bitten other children twice in 6 months. He’s been bitten himself about 7 or 8 times.

Absolutely this.

Also rethink consequences at home for biting at nursery. Children need immediate consequences. He’s too young to understand consequences at home for something that happened at nursery.

Definitely think there is a balance. But if SEN is being questioned his teachers at school will know.

In some, limited cases I think the SEN lens becomes a self fulfilling prophesy as more and more behaviour is interpreted as SEN. In some (again, limited) circumstances this can cause harm because essentially settings start saying "well, he's doing xyz because he has SEN" (or worse "is SEN") when actually that setting is just not a great environment for one reason or another. In all my professional and personal experience, it is extremely rare for a setting to self reflect even if several children are having the same "problems".