To not allow SEN referral for DS?

[FernFaery]

DS has recently turned 3. He changed nurseries 6 months ago. His old nursery sang his praises, and he never had any issues there. Since joining the new one, we’ve had a steady stream of the following complaints:

1. He doesn’t listen
2. He’s hyperactive
3. He hits/bites
4. His attention span is short

I realise the above sounds awful. He never bit or hit at his last nursery, and has been badly bitten himself at the new one on a handful of occasions - at one point 3 times in a week.

He has good days or even weeks and it can be some time between complaints. At home he’s energetic and sometimes fights with his sister, but he never seems ‘angry’ and isn’t hard to distract or bring down during a tantrum. He is physical and would rather be outside or climbing/running, but he can spend a good hour at a time playing with plastic animals, doing jigsaws and enjoys sitting and reading lots of stories. His speech and motor skills are really good. He never hits or bites me or DH, or any other adult while we are there. He’s also very nice with his friends at play dates and I’ve never seen him act aggressively.

I can’t decide if this is a DS issue or a nursery issue and we should move him. While I know additional support can’t hurt, the programme involves a series of meetings and goals and I am so utterly swamped with work, studying, learning to drive and a time consuming disability I have myself. I feel like I’m drowning.

If your child was ever in this position what happened? I feel so drained by it. I realise I might sound ‘in denial’ but honestly he’s fine outside of nursery and his behaviour gives me no cause for concern (he has a 7 year old sister too).

So this isn’t a Sen referral/ diagnosis by the sounds of it it’s just a referral for some extra help, we call it early help in our borough. I’d grab it with both hands as any support is usually so hard to come by!

I think that’s a pretty good attention span for just turned 3. I’d be looking at the routine and staff engagement in nursery because I’d not expect a 3 year old to have much of an attention span and to need support to keep on task.

Even if he isn't SEN (and he is v young so hard to know) then it is worth taking any support going and useful having an outside perspective.

Loads of children have SEN for lots of things. My DS is on the school SEN register for SALT but when he was at preschool they got an EP to assess him with his social/ emotional skills as he was struggling a bit. He hasn't had the same issues as he's become older and more confident. It's not like a label that they get at 3 and sticks to them for life.

Do you have to go to the meetings too?

I wonder if it's similar to the early help service my son has been referred to (5, we suspect ADHD but will wait and see on that).

He was referred about 3 months ago and we still haven't heard back, so it might be a while before your DS is actually seen.

...Is your son anxious at all? Does he manage transitions ok (switchings tasks without having a tantrum?). Does he get overly upset in challenging social situations such as another child not sharing or losing a game? My son tends to go from 0-100, eg immediate floods of tears and lying on the floor for ages if another kid calls him a poo poo face or whatever else reception kids say to one another.

I would also be wary of any interventions at this early age. Nursery staff should be able to cope with children that are a little more active. But we now live in therapy culture in this country where every behaviour has to be referred, diagnosed and labelled. I'm not surprised SEND sector is collapsing.

Brilliant advice!

Is it the local senco who’s going to come and observe him ? We had this was ds nursery as staff had their suspicions of asd, the local senco had to observe and she agreed so then she was the one who did the referral

A friend of my son’s had this but in reverse. The boy’s original nursery were always raising problems and referred him for autism diagnosis. Parents went along with it and after assessment, he was not diagnosed with anything. They then moved him to another nursery where the feedback from staff was completely different and always positive. He’s now in school and doing really well with only positive feedback from school also. I think the original setting was completely wrong for him coupled with nursery staff overly keen to jump on labelling with diagnosis.

I'm normally all for SEN assessments/intervention but in this case I'd be more concerned that this was a nursery issue and look to move him unless he's really happy.

Sounds like a box ticking exercise tbh as in they ‘refer’ a set number of kids every year to keep their funding for his programme. Our old nursery did similar with a speech and language programme, referred my son when he clearly had no delays whatsoever in that area (while failing to address the areas he was behind in as there was no programme for that). Your DS sounds like an absolutely normal 3 year old to me, it’s a bit tiring all this constant over-diagnosis these days. Soon there will be entire classrooms full of kids with an ADHD diagnosis.

obviously without the ins and outs I can’t say for sure and it could be worth trying a new setting to see if the same things happen. However, I’m an early years teacher and the above can be normal age appropriate behaviour, however it can also be extreme and we’ve seen it all! I had a child in my class that showed similar behaviours but on the more recent extreme end that we tried to bring up to parents that we thought they might need more support and the possibility of SEND. They went mad. Absolutely adamant that they did not stand out in a group of 3 year olds. Unsurprisingly, this child is now in KS1 and is really struggling, parents are trying to get referrals in and the wait is 3 years. To be fair to them, they have said we were right and they should have listened but it’s too late now!

I’ve got no concerns re autism at all. He sleeps really well, eats anything we offer him, really likes meeting new people and making new friends. He gets very excited for weekends away and holidays. No stimming or anything like that. His speech is really good and he can say if people are sad/happy/scared and so on, and if he is. We’re at the park at the moment and he’s made a little friend who he is tearing around with.

The ‘outside of very normal’ but is that he is very hyperactive and noisy, he’s not at all shy or passive in the way some kids are. But for context the kid he’s playing with at the moment is clearly younger than him but ‘in charge’, DS is conceding to them if they want to do something and usually does do this - he never seems bullying or forceful in that way ‘spirited’ can often be used.

That doesn't sound too awful tbh.

At this stage I would try to keep discussions of additional support vs pursuing a diagnosis as separate as you can. A diagnosis is not required for additional support, which should be needs-led in someone so young.

Also children don't 'catch' ASD, ADHD etc if you give them additional interventions relevant to those conditions when they don't actually have them.

no they absolutely do NOT refer a set number of children each year. How ridiculous, as is the rest of this post.

I’d be inclined to accept something that supported school readiness.

Even if it is the case that the difference is that the nursery has changed, and he preferred the previous setting, any intervention might help with strategies to manage in environments that aren’t preferred.

He may not like school when he goes there, and may struggle with directed tasks or focus there - now is a really good time to support him to be able to manage that, IMO.

Whether he’s only biting or hitting at school is almost irrelevant, it’s unacceptable behaviour everywhere. If that’s the behaviour they’re seeing, they are within their rights to want it addressing.

I have a 9 year old (admittedly very high needs) who still can’t sit at a desk for extended periods, and still much prefers outside time, to the point of escalation if he has to do something he deems as work for too long.

If there had been an earlier intervention available, I’d have bitten their hand off.

He sounds like he's just being a kid. I dont understand why the nursery aren't able to address the situation themselves?

Do the referral. It takes ages to go through the process and if he doesn’t have any SEN the process won’t suddenly diagnose it. The whole point is to distinguish genuine ND from any other issues.

I think you’re better off accepting the help now. If you refuse and have problems down the line it could go against you. Waiting times are usually long so it’s better to get the support in now. They wouldn’t have suggested it for no reason. Kids act differently in different settings and contexts. What you see at home maybe different at school. If they can support him now then school will be easier for him.

regarding your work and meetings etc - yeah it’s tough but your kid comes first and it’s better to get support early. If he doesn’t need it and nothing more comes of it then that’s great. But if you decline and school is tricky then it can lead to school refusal and school suggesting reduced timetables. That will have a bigger impact on your work and meetings.

They won’t be, because ADHD isn’t diagnosed til age 7 for this exact reason. It will be something else. I think you should go for it. It’s just a single form to fill in.

Sorry to add - maybe the move has unsettled him a bit and he’ll settle. This support they’re offering may then help the transition to school?

practically it will be years wait to be accessed
by then he will be older, probably in school so you will have a much clearer idea if he has any additional needs
and if he is accessed and has no SEN that is what the report will say

that’s better than not getting put on the waiting list and then thinking it might be needed

And you dont want that for your child? They"re not referring your son because the behaviour he is displaying is normal for three year olds. Don't wait until Reception.

I think you should accept the referral. It sounds like it’s a gateway type programme which may well be necessary to have gone through if, later, you want to try to go down the diagnosis pathway.

IME nurseries are often better than parents at spotting children who are neurodivergent precisely because they see so many kids they have a really good benchmark of what is out of the ordinary. Whereas at home you just have his sister, plus he’s operating in a low-demand environment.

If you take the referral then chances are that if there is no additional need this will be fed straight back to the nursery.

I’ve seen quite a few kids where the parents have refused to accept that there is anything wrong/ support, and what tends to happen is that they struggle through primary (often with quite a lot of intervention) then the wheels fall off in late primary/ secondary. And you really don’t want to be trying to get an ECHP for a 13 year old, or trying to get medication once all the hormones kick in and you don’t have a diagnosis.

If this is what they are offering (rather than a diagnostic pathway) you should either take it or move Nursery. What they are saying is that with their regular curriculum and offering they don’t think he will be school ready. This could be a misjudgment on their part and a flaw in their provision, but if you are going to leave him at this Nursery, I’d take the support. The biting and hitting has me wary that this is the best setting for him.

My nursery confirmed in writing to me that they did do exactly that when I challenged them on it, so it’s you that is being ridiculous I’m afraid. To be clear I had no other issues with the nursery, it was a great nursery and my DS was very happy there but they should have been upfront about it rather than phrasing it as an intervention and causing additional stress. And yes, I do think over-diagnosis of mental health conditions in both children and adults is becoming an increasingly big problem in the UK. If you think that makes me ridiculous then I’m fine with that!