To not allow SEN referral for DS?

[FernFaery]

DS has recently turned 3. He changed nurseries 6 months ago. His old nursery sang his praises, and he never had any issues there. Since joining the new one, we’ve had a steady stream of the following complaints:

1. He doesn’t listen
2. He’s hyperactive
3. He hits/bites
4. His attention span is short

I realise the above sounds awful. He never bit or hit at his last nursery, and has been badly bitten himself at the new one on a handful of occasions - at one point 3 times in a week.

He has good days or even weeks and it can be some time between complaints. At home he’s energetic and sometimes fights with his sister, but he never seems ‘angry’ and isn’t hard to distract or bring down during a tantrum. He is physical and would rather be outside or climbing/running, but he can spend a good hour at a time playing with plastic animals, doing jigsaws and enjoys sitting and reading lots of stories. His speech and motor skills are really good. He never hits or bites me or DH, or any other adult while we are there. He’s also very nice with his friends at play dates and I’ve never seen him act aggressively.

I can’t decide if this is a DS issue or a nursery issue and we should move him. While I know additional support can’t hurt, the programme involves a series of meetings and goals and I am so utterly swamped with work, studying, learning to drive and a time consuming disability I have myself. I feel like I’m drowning.

If your child was ever in this position what happened? I feel so drained by it. I realise I might sound ‘in denial’ but honestly he’s fine outside of nursery and his behaviour gives me no cause for concern (he has a 7 year old sister too).

Nurseries don’t automatically receive more funding for DC they refer &/or DC who have SEN. If your nursery will be receiving early years inclusion funding, there are more concerns than you are posting about here. Either the nursery isn’t giving you the full picture or they are but you have posted limited information. The bar for early years inclusion funding from LAs is higher than the difficulties you mention.

He doesn’t have autism.

I said he’s not autistic just because he has a good memory.

My son absolutely does have autism. At three, it wasn't suspected.

DS doesn’t have autism. Not everything is autism.

My eldest was like this at that age (but not a biter). I had a few people mention SEN as he also spoke very late (he was referred for salt by nursery).

Anyways now at almost 5, he’s bilingual, in the top set for phonics and his math is very advanced. Never stops talking and can write in his other language too. His behaviour has improved dramatically and he never tantrums. He does require a lot of physical exercise still.

Personally I understand your concerns. I lived in the ME where many companies will automatically turn you down if any SEN or MH issues are flagged in the medical declaration. Same in other countries. I wouldn’t have wanted to close doors for ds should he want to work abroad in the future by having a misdiagnosis.

Having said that, the salt therapist was helpful. Out of all of the dentists, hv and GPs I’d mentioned ds excessive dribbling to, only she flagged it up and referred him to ENT. Turns out he has enlarged adenoids!

Yes, but some things are.

This isn’t. He doesn’t have a single symptom. He’s the opposite of autism.

Yes it’s a balancing act. I don’t want things put on paper that can’t be scrubbed off if things improve. I’ll happily take any intervention which is just designed to help him along but I’m wary of his name being added to registers etc for the reasons you state.

Look I am not saying your son is or is not autistic. Obviously not. But I will say from experience that autism is not just one thing. There are can be introverted autistic people and extroverted. There can be autistic people who are hugely intelligent and get along fine for some time, masking and there can be others that are obviously not fine. Autism can also present differently if the person also has ADHD. If you are so adamant that he does not have it, you are unlikely to see it even if he does.

I would take him out and send him to school and see what happens there

What is the opposite of autism?

If the reason for his difficulties at nursery are the change in setting, and change at home 6 months ago, whether you want to hear this or not - that could be a symptom.

Physical communication - biting and hitting, could be a symptom.

Experiencing extended difficulty in a new education setting, could be a symptom.

Struggling to listen may actually be his processing ability, which could be autism.

Being more physically active than peers, could be ADHD. The two are very often co present.

You’re right, it could well also not be. He could be a 3 year old, expressing himself in the way he knows how.

But your borderline offence at the idea it could be anything neurodivergent is frankly offensive. Some of the comments here at least imply it would be awful/bad news if he was, when in reality he’d just be himself but with more support.

The nursery are offering to help him, personally I’d take it. But I wouldn’t move his nursery in much the same way that I wouldn’t move a child’s school because they don’t like it.

Why is it offensive? He isn’t autistic. He doesn’t have a single symptom of autism. It’s suggested on here relentlessly like there’s nothing else.

I did just list things that could be a symptom. Also could not be, but the reason it’s being suggested is because of the things I’ve said above.

Because you sound like you’re resistant to the idea because it bothers you, rather than any other reason.

I know mums are not developmental experts, but I do think we have to trust what OP is saying about her own child. If he doesn't have any autism traits, it's fairly unlikely he's high-masking at 3 years old. Many 3 year olds are energetic and bite occasionally (especially ones who have been bitten themselves at nursery).

A mother's insight should be is really important in any SEN process, referral or assessment. It's not about denial, but about listening to what this mother is actually saying.

We must remember that not all "help" / support / intervention offered is neutral for all children and families.

I know of several families who have had interventions which appeared to make the situation worse.

This sounds to me like a nursery looking for an issue where there isn't one. I wonder if they are trying to source high needs block funding for extra staff to make their own lives easier.

My friends son had a lot of issues with a very inexperienced temporary year 1 teacher. My DD was in the same class. From what i saw on trips and hearing readers in the classroom, she was very poor on classroom management and insisted he had adhd, learning difficulties & other issues.

A number of parents had cause to complain about the temp teacher & she was moved on. I heard later she had referred almost all the boys in the class to the senco! my friends decided to ignore her comments, their son thrived the following year with the experienced year 2 teacher, did well in all the end of year assessments and has had no issues since (Now y5).

Op is it the nursery class of a private school? Ive heard of similar in these settings before

Sorry. I quite agree that parental input is important, and nobody knows a child better than their parents.

I do however think there’s something in professionals who see children every day raising concerns, or making you aware of what they’re observing. I certainly wouldn’t dismiss their help if it might benefit my child.

Personally, I would only move my son’s schooling if it wasn’t meeting his needs or keeping him safe. I wouldn’t consider moving him because he was showing or telling me he didn’t like it, because the life lesson (which is a hard one) is that we don’t always like places we have to go, and that’s tough shit.

I would let them do the referral. It could be that he needs more support to access more formal "school ready" learning. As a PP has said, people fight and fight for this support and they won't find what isn't there.

It sounds like he has had some change in his life. Also different settings have different experience levels of ND children and different learning cultures which some children struggle with. In regards to his previous setting, was there more outside/ active play than at the current one, whereas the new setting is more indoors/ sitting down/ quiet activity? This can lead to struggles that were masked before come more apparent.

When I worked in a nursery, I know we had a couple of children struggle in new settings after leaving us (they often returned) and children join us from other settings. Our provision was more outdoor/ active play based with lots of time outside/ free flow and lots of time to ride bikes/ climb/ run and have physical exercise as well as indoor focus time. The setting attracted those who liked the amount of outside and active play. We were more used to more exuberant personalities too. The amount of outside/ active play often meant that a lot of energy was released before it had time to build up.

One of the settings a few of our returnees attended was much more sedated with lots more inside play and had more formal outside times rather than free flow. The manager (I knew the manager as I had worked their as bank staff previously) was quite old fashioned and insisted on a calm/ orderly setting and wasn't really a huge fan of the at the time "free flow" recommendations of EYFS. The nature of the management at the setting meant staff were used to more sedate personalities who were happy pottering with the art supplies/ building blocks/ small world figures rather than charging around the playground on bikes and scooters. Great if you have a sedate child, not so great if you have a child with lots of energy that gets pent up.

What makes a mother understand the different ways that autism can present? Often there are different ways of understanding the same thing - a child does x - is that because of their sensory difficulties with the environment, expressive or pragmatic language problems that frustrates them, or because they have recently moved nursery... Obviously the mother's view is very important but it shouldn't be given wisdom that it cannot possess.

Because everything seems to be autism now to the extent nothing I say will make you go ‘ah I see, yes he doesn’t sound autistic’. So sorry if I take it with a pinch of salt.

I wrote early on when you first posted saying that 3 is too young, that they should focus on his support etc. I didn't mention autism and I suggested that you focus on his support.

@FernFaery

Hand on heart, would you be bothered if he was neurodivergent in any way?

I ask because as I’ve said, you sound completely closed to the idea, like it’s an absolute non-starter?

Funnily enough, 7 years ago it was in our house too.

Op he doesn't sound remotely autistic to me. And there's a reason ADHD is not typically diagnosed so young - its normal for young children to have relatively short attention spans and be frankly speaking pretty hyper.

Nothing you say at all suggests an issue. My (thoroughly NT) daughter bit a few times at this age when she felt out of control. That your son has been bitten himself suggests the nursery aren't supervising well & also aren't responding well to manage this (quite developmentally normal) behaviour.