To think people in gender pay gap discussions who say women should go into trades to get a higher paid job ignore that a lot of trades are physically too demanding for a large number of women to do (though of course some do and can)?

[QueenSophia]

In a lot of gender pay gap discussions I've seen here & elsewhere, people note that male dominated jobs like building, plumbing etc are higher paid than female equivalents like the 5 Cs so women could improve the gender pay gap by going into those.

To me this is unfair as it ignores that a lot of women are not physically strong enough to do these jobs long term. Obviously some can & that's great but a lot will not be able to. Just saying women who would otherwise go into caring, cleaning etc should be plumbers, electricians etc is not reasonable for many.

AIBU?

It's perfectly obvious that one big reason why we don't have more women who plaster is because of the far lower percentage of women than men who have strong enough shoulders to cope with the work. Women are disproportionately represented in people with shoulder pain caused by overuse not accident. The average woman has only around 50-60% of the upper body strength of the average man.

If you mean that 'in their cycle' normally menstruating women have more of the hormone relaxin, then that actually helps with flexibility and good training will take account of this.

But if a woman wishes to be a roofer, she gets paid the same.

Except she doesn't. Women across the board in construction in like for like jobs are paid 10% less than men.

The men in those trades don't naturally have those muscles, they built them on the job. I know many men who'd be incapable of doing those jobs right now.

Yes, they build muscle more easily and have a higher base level but women can still do these jobs, they would gain the muscle as they go along.

male dominated jobs like building, plumbing etc are higher paid than female equivalents like the 5 Cs so women could improve the gender pay gap by going into those

It seems to me that society should place a greater value on female-dominated jobs, and they should be paid more.

Similar though not identical stereotypes in different societies make women recruitable as good snipers or as good front of shop staff (apart from the chatting).

The stereotypes are ridiculous.

Women are good at a variety of things and have a range of personalities. We do not all human the same way.

I'm not struggling with any part of that but surely you can see that if a far lower percentage of all women are capable of doing a job that requires strength, then not only will the job will be heavily skewed towards employing men, but there will be a large proportion of women who aren't actually capable of going into a trade they might like to do.

Before we even start on the proportion of women versus men who are prepared to end their work day with dirt rammed into their nails and a face that needs scrubbing to get clean.

Its funny you think the worries about lone working are about missing having a gossip. Women mean they are worried about entering loads of peoples houses alone in case of assault or rape. I think that estate agent that was murdered got into peoples psyche. Plus all lone working carries a risk if you are injured or get into difficulties(for men too - its not a special women thing) and some people just arent risk takers.i think women are either socialised or biologically take less risks in studies.

You cooperative sounds lovely btw. My friends started a gardening business network that was all women. It went very well.

They can gain some muscle of course but the cheating of iron curtain female athletes by taking testosterone shows clearly that they can't gain in the same way as a man without added testosterone.

And they can never gain the reach from having longer arms and legs.

They took it to beat other women, not to compete with men. Just like men took it to beat other men.

Why is this?
Do they ask for less because they think they won't get employed otherwise?

I'd need more detail.
Is it because they're less flexible about where and when they can work?
If it's this then well that's nobody's fault really as if a job needs doing, it needs doing when the person who wants it done done.

Having said that if a woman in a trade works the same hours as a man, does the same job to the same standard of course she should be paid the same.

My comment about lone working was in direct response to a previous post saying women didn't used to like working alone because they like to chat.

As someone who has often worked alone on isolated farms and in gardens I agree with you about the risks to all lone workers.

Going completely against the grain of the OP I strongly recommend women go into the trades.

The benefits are - good pay, the opportunity for self employment, the USP of many women and more vulnerable people wanting to employ women, flexibility to work around family, earning potential.

The downsides can be overcome. If you train for a job you become strong. I've never met a female farm labourer who asked a man to do a heavy/hard job. You build the skills and you build the strength.

Don't tell your daughters they are not strong enough. They damn well are.

Why is this?

Endemic historical industry wide sexism.

Don't tell your daughters they are not strong enough. They damn well are.

So. Much. This. Thank you.

What a load of nonsense. In the U.K., the safe maximum load for a single lift from the hips is 25kgs. HSE will come down on you hard if you have people regularly lifting heavier weights than that. Almost all groundworks and trenching, demolition etc is done by machine, you’d struggle to find a single pick axe on a construction site. It does employers no good to have people of any gender heavy lifting regularly so most will prevent it. Not to mention the plethora of non heavy work that happens on site. Joiner, carpenter, painter, electrician, mech install, tilers, floor laying etc etc etc.

Offshore work similarly is not as heavy duty across the board as it once was. I know of many women who have worked offshore, chemists, analysts, medics, catering, well monitoring, welders. Most heavy work is also mechanised these days. One of the busiest places on a rig is the gym.

Mining and tunnelling - again largely done by machine. Tree surgery, as long as you can lift a chainsaw you’re fine. The myth that these are all dirty back breaking work is peddled largely by the men who do these jobs, usually as an excuse to either keep women out, or to avoid doing anything around the house. This also serves to keep the pay gap going strong because the financial value of similarly difficult work traditionally done by women is less. Thankfully the law is correcting that now. It is no longer possible for a street sweeper to be paid more than an office cleaner.

The main reason women don’t enter these careers is because they are socialised to avoid them. Most who do, face a toxic working environment not because of the job, but because of the men they are working with.

The big issue with the gender pay gap has very little to do with any of those “heavy jobs”. It is because women are prevented from progressing to managerial roles. There’s a reason for that…

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-feed/video/the-frant-gender-wage-gaps-come-down-to-choice/4si30f6cb

I didn't know which point of thier cycle it was - but i have checked now and it was menstruation. Basically women used to train like a man and then they realised they were getting more injuries, so now train like a woman. Adjustment include things like less intensity of training during thier periods and being much more focused on proper technique.

But if your job involves the same movements everyday and its harder to make those adjustments -especially in a macho environment built around men. You could be more prone to an injury at that time.

Im not suggesting women shouldnt do trades because periods. Im just saying that men get injured a lot at work and women have an additional risk factor in that. I suffered with SPD due to relaxin and flexibility was not my friend!

I missed that comment. Apologies.

I never said that people (women) are identical at all - this is why I am clear that equality of opportunity should exist.

But if you're saying that men and women are just born as blank slates with no inherent differences, I could not disagree with you more.

Biology very much affects behaviour.
Hormones very much affect behaviour.
It's well known that if women are given testosterone they become more aggressive.

In this case, men are able to do the extremely physically demanding jobs that most-not all- women cannot do.

This is absolutely obvious.

yeah, that’s not what that statistic means. The issues around workplace safety are complex, but of course more men are more likely to have an injury at work, because more men work in those industries. When you adjust the statistics to take that in to account, the numbers are still higher for men than they are for women, because men have been found to take more unnecessary risks, refuse to engage with safety protocols, and are far more likely to make a serious safety error. They are also far less likely to report any hazard.

Young men are far more likely to be killed or injured than older men however the biggest cause of deaths amongst male construction workers is suicide. They are 4 times more likely to kill themselves than be injured at work, an average of 2 men per day working in construction take their own lives.

All of these issues be it a refusal to engage with safety protocols or having poor mental health is down to the very toxic masculinity that prevents women from working in the industry. Again showing men are the ones causing the issues, which they then go on to insist means they should be paid more.

No, women don’t “ask for less”. There’s is also very little issue with flexibility in construction. Rarely does a job need doing right then and there, most work is programmed. Anyone who has had a tradie to their house knows they are never reliable on when they turn up and how long they stay.

I’ve yet to find a job that is so physically demanding, women are entirely unable to do.

You need to be physically fit for a lot of construction trades, that's true. But that goes for either sex.

If a woman wanted to be a roofer or whatever but she felt she wasn't physically capable then she'd get down the gym and start lifting. If you want a job that requires strength then you get strong. Same as if it was a young lad.

But an electrician or plasterer doesn't need lots of strength? Even groundworkers use machinery not just manual tools.

Lots of words, missing my point that the stereotypes applied to women are absurd and also lead to wildly varying outcomes.

What ever happened to a sensible discussion of the gender pay gap and the overarching distortion effects of patriarchy, on this fairground of a hitting things hard thread?

Can I ask how long you've worked in construction?