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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think people in gender pay gap discussions who say women should go into trades to get a higher paid job ignore that a lot of trades are physically too demanding for a large number of women to do (though of course some do and can)?

274 replies

QueenSophia · 13/06/2026 02:12

In a lot of gender pay gap discussions I've seen here & elsewhere, people note that male dominated jobs like building, plumbing etc are higher paid than female equivalents like the 5 Cs so women could improve the gender pay gap by going into those.

To me this is unfair as it ignores that a lot of women are not physically strong enough to do these jobs long term. Obviously some can & that's great but a lot will not be able to. Just saying women who would otherwise go into caring, cleaning etc should be plumbers, electricians etc is not reasonable for many.

AIBU?

OP posts:
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7
crackofdoom · 13/06/2026 21:27

crackofdoom · 13/06/2026 21:07

My job is half craft, half trade. I often do it on building sites. In my county, it's a majority female profession. Back in the day it was as male dominated as the rest of the trades though (and back in the day it was 100% considered a trade).

What changed? It nearly died out in the 80s, before being "rediscovered". Which meant that all the old boys had retired, there were no apprenticeships, and we all had to figure it out from scratch, meaning we were on a level playing field.No gatekeepers.

To add: it involves a lot of climbing up ladders, scaffolding etc (and the amount of scaffolding I've seen that's- in my opinion- unsafe, I can well believe there are so many accidents on site! It doesn't have to be like that, but it is. IMO men don't do it because it's dangerous- it's dangerous because so many (young) men do it!)

It also involves a lot of lugging entire sheets of plywood, and using power tools.

StressedSupportWorker · 13/06/2026 22:53

QueenSophia · 13/06/2026 20:37

I suspect care homes sometimes cut costs by not providing these. Otherwise why are people not using them? I care for an elderly relative and would have terrible back problems without the hoist. If care homes are nor ensuring these are used, that's criminal!

Many traditional sources of injury in health and social care have been eliminated, thanks to technological progress, but not all of them, which is why health and social care is still one of the sectors that reports the highest number of workplace manual handling injuries and musculoskeletal disorders. When you narrow that down by role, the stats can be absolutely horrifying. For example, in America, one in four emergency medical services personnel (i.e. ambulance workers) sustains a career-ending back injury within their first four years of service.

But anyway, rather than quoting stats, I'll focus on some of the sources of injury that haven't been solved with technology.

i) repositioning people with limited mobility into a comfortable position in bed, as in further up or down from the headboard. Done with a slide sheet which is literally supposed to slide along the bed, which is safer for the care recipient than being moved directly, and safer for staff. Ultimately, this is still two staff members, one on each side of the bed, moving a full-size adult by tugging a sheet underneath them. It is amazing how much those sheets don't slide when there is a 100kg person on them. But the OT has been out, and that's the best equipment they can prescribe.

ii) Giving immobile people care in bed, such as dressing, undressing, changing continence aids. Or in order to place them in a sling, so they can use an overhead hoist!

Done by rolling the person backwards and forwards, with a minimum of two people. Manual handling training states that you raise the hydraulic bed to a safe working height for staff, but when you have staff members of different heights on each side of the bed, it's very easy to place the bed at slightly the wrong height for one colleague. Over years and years of working, the cumulative wear and tear builds up.

Then the rolling. When you are concentrating on reassuring and calming someone in bed during care, your focus is on them and their dignity, not your own back, and that's how you hyperextend your back. Especially with larger people. It's the work of a second to stretch just a little bit too far for their convenience, and this is something you're doing day-in, day-out. Cumulative wear and tear.

iii) Pushing wheelchair-users up steep inclines like steep ramps. Again, cumulative wear and tear.

iv) Awkward positions. When you're looking after people, you end up sitting and standing in suboptimal positions because it keeps the other person safe/comfortable. And then the next day, you do it again. For example, I spend hours of my life in awkward positions over the course of the week so I can help people to eat, dress, and wash with dignity. There's no machinery that squats down for you to put someone's fungicidal cream on their toes after their shower.

There are going to be more examples than this, but this is what comes to mind.

QueenSophia · 13/06/2026 23:32

PlaygroundSusie · 13/06/2026 07:31

I think a lot of it is also due to the fact that many bosses in trades like plumbing, electricians, etc, simply don't want to take on young women as apprentices.

I remember reading an article a few years ago about a female cabinet-maker who'd just won an industry award. She had to apply at hundreds of different places before she found someone who was willing to give her an apprenticeship. Even her own grandfather - who was a cabinet-maker himself and ran his own successful business - refused to take her on, because he didn't believe the cabinet-making industry was a "good fit" for young women.

I remember reading an article a few years ago about a female cabinet-maker who'd just won an industry award. She had to apply at hundreds of different places before she found someone who was willing to give her an apprenticeship

  • that's incredible. Only a few years ago - but is this attitude really common in trades generally still? Depressing if so...
OP posts:
QueenSophia · 13/06/2026 23:35

Corianda · 13/06/2026 07:35

Surely history said that the women were forced back to the home so that men returning from War could get jobs.
Also probably depends where you were - almost no women worked in the more rural area where I grew up except single women.

Definitely a lot of women did stop work for various reasons then, marriage bard had existed before the war too. But as pp said some women still worked : my grandmother worked through the 50s as a girls' school teacher & most of her colleagues were female.

OP posts:
QueenSophia · 13/06/2026 23:38

Grghf · 13/06/2026 07:51

Women have got into strength training as notions of fuckability have changed.
Sure they blather on about the "empowerment" and health aspects but ultimately they are working on their glutes for the same reason they're getting fillers, nkt because they aspire to take on traditionally male employment opportunities

I don't think that's it. Had there been a huge increase in men being attracted to muscles particularly? I don't think it's that.

OP posts:
QueenSophia · 14/06/2026 00:52

YoBetty · 13/06/2026 09:24

male dominated jobs like building, plumbing etc are higher paid than female equivalents like the 5 Cs so women could improve the gender pay gap by going into those

It seems to me that society should place a greater value on female-dominated jobs, and they should be paid more.

Caring is definitely paid and valued far less than it should be, for one! Nursery care and elderly care

OP posts:
HelmholtzWatson · 14/06/2026 05:22

StressedSupportWorker · 13/06/2026 15:09

I used to do warehouse work, and I can attest that the majority of workplace accidents I saw were down to young men ignoring health and safety. For example, the young men who decided to have a race with some cages. They ran as fast as they could with loaded cages (see image of a cage for those who haven't used one, taken from an online stockist) to build up momentum and then leapt on the back and hung on. Very nasty accident resulted. I've also seen young men jumping over safety barriers separating workers on foot and vehicles to get to the canteen one minute faster. (So did management, and they were dismissed immediately.)

I never had a single injury because my manual handling was good, and every day and load was similar, so I could do it the tried and tested way.

At some point, I became bored with warehouses and decided to switch to the care sector for personal fulfillment. Wonderful, rewarding job, but I've strained by back in care once already through pushing bariatric patients up ramps.

Sounds more like a personal anecdote than data.

WaryCrow · 14/06/2026 11:47

QueenSophia · 13/06/2026 23:32

I remember reading an article a few years ago about a female cabinet-maker who'd just won an industry award. She had to apply at hundreds of different places before she found someone who was willing to give her an apprenticeship

  • that's incredible. Only a few years ago - but is this attitude really common in trades generally still? Depressing if so...

Yes.

Its normal.

As is sexual harassment of any female that wanders near a group of males. That includes a group of males at work. Remember the old trope about harassment from builders? And you wonder why there aren’t more girls among them? I’ve had to escort girls to training on male dominated trades before now, and bloody hell they are brave girls. The way they got treated was by just sickening, and it’s difficult to know what to say to support them in said group that won’t actually make things worse for them once your back is turned.

There’s a reason why we still have to have headlines about ‘the first young woman mechanic in formula one’ and it is t because women can’t do the job- how would there ever be a first if it’s a flat ‘women can’t do this job’?

Look up ‘Normal Women’ by Philippa Gregory. You might be surprised by just how hard women have to fight men to do the jobs they can and have done in the past.

WaryCrow · 14/06/2026 11:52

HelmholtzWatson · 14/06/2026 05:22

Sounds more like a personal anecdote than data.

Really. There’s no evidence that men take more risks? I doubt it since it’s been known for years. Why is it young men that have higher insurance costs when they first pass a driving test?

StressedSupportWorker · 14/06/2026 12:31

HelmholtzWatson · 14/06/2026 05:22

Sounds more like a personal anecdote than data.

Of course it's a personal anecdote.

If you want data about young men taking more risks than women or older men , I believe one of the terms for it is "Young Male Syndrome", and using that in web searches will return the results you need.

Shedmistress · 14/06/2026 13:25

BillieWiper · 13/06/2026 14:01

I worked with the training board for 15 years. But I've never worked on a site and I'm not a tradesperson.

Why do you ask?

interesting, you reminded me of the types that worked for the CITB that had never had one day on a site. Maybe go offer to take a bath and a toilet system up 5 flights of pissy stairs to install in a flat and then tell us they don't need strength.

Not that the CITB does electrical or plumbing, which you'd know right?

Shedmistress · 14/06/2026 13:28

StressedSupportWorker · 14/06/2026 12:31

Of course it's a personal anecdote.

If you want data about young men taking more risks than women or older men , I believe one of the terms for it is "Young Male Syndrome", and using that in web searches will return the results you need.

I went to see a roofer once, he was behind his desk in a wheelchair. I asked him what happened and he said that the space between the scaffolding the the roof was larger than it should have been and he fell down between the two. He said he called his wife from the floor and she called the ambulance. She was bloody livid and banned him from doing roofing again. He said the funny thing was, it wasn't even the first time it had happened. He was in his 40s. It isn't just young men.

BillieWiper · 14/06/2026 13:40

Shedmistress · 14/06/2026 13:25

interesting, you reminded me of the types that worked for the CITB that had never had one day on a site. Maybe go offer to take a bath and a toilet system up 5 flights of pissy stairs to install in a flat and then tell us they don't need strength.

Not that the CITB does electrical or plumbing, which you'd know right?

Yeah I do know that thanks. Sorry if I sound like a twat. Lol. Believe me I did mean well and we were constantly trying to get women into the industry. It was years ago now.

Papster · 14/06/2026 13:58

I ll ask the all female team on our waste collection round what they think

Imdunfer · 14/06/2026 14:10

Papster · 14/06/2026 13:58

I ll ask the all female team on our waste collection round what they think

Edited

They aren't there ones to ask. The ones to ask are the ones who wouldn't ever apply to empty dustbins. Called the majority of women, I think.

HelmholtzWatson · Yesterday 05:17

StressedSupportWorker · 14/06/2026 12:31

Of course it's a personal anecdote.

If you want data about young men taking more risks than women or older men , I believe one of the terms for it is "Young Male Syndrome", and using that in web searches will return the results you need.

I'm a lecturer in psychology, so am familiar with Wilson and Daly's work.

The point about risk taking is from an evolutionary perspective, risk taking in males must have an evolutionary pay-off for it to be adaptive. It's not all about being thrown in jail or dying in work accidents.

Turns out risk taking predicts higher salaries, holding gender constant. Hence why it's one of the reasons men earn slightly more.

Owninterpreter · Yesterday 07:21

HelmholtzWatson · Yesterday 05:17

I'm a lecturer in psychology, so am familiar with Wilson and Daly's work.

The point about risk taking is from an evolutionary perspective, risk taking in males must have an evolutionary pay-off for it to be adaptive. It's not all about being thrown in jail or dying in work accidents.

Turns out risk taking predicts higher salaries, holding gender constant. Hence why it's one of the reasons men earn slightly more.

What a cool job. I hope its ok to ask a question.but are we just framing risk through a male lens as in the types of rusks men take are called risk but the ones women take are ignored. I was thinking about pregnancy and birth here. Its a huge risk many women take. Theres a strong chance you could end up raising a child alone. Theres sadly a risk of injury and death, domestic violence often starts then. Outside of childbirth things like starting a new relationship carry a risk of violence that is less present for men but most people wouldnt describe that as risk taking behaviour.

So o guess im asking does risk have a specific meaning in psychology and is it male biased

HelmholtzWatson · Yesterday 07:50

Owninterpreter · Yesterday 07:21

What a cool job. I hope its ok to ask a question.but are we just framing risk through a male lens as in the types of rusks men take are called risk but the ones women take are ignored. I was thinking about pregnancy and birth here. Its a huge risk many women take. Theres a strong chance you could end up raising a child alone. Theres sadly a risk of injury and death, domestic violence often starts then. Outside of childbirth things like starting a new relationship carry a risk of violence that is less present for men but most people wouldnt describe that as risk taking behaviour.

So o guess im asking does risk have a specific meaning in psychology and is it male biased

Yes, women take risks too. One thing people consistently get wrong about sex differences is an "all-or-nothing" approach. So, both sexes take risks, but on average men just take more risks. Indeed, both sexes take fewer risks once they have had children. In men, their testosterone level roughly halves when they have a child, which lowers their predisposition to risk taking. So, the environment also plays a role, albeit driven by biology in this instance.

It's certainly true having a child is an inherently risky business. This is why women are more choosy when it comes to selecting a partner. They are actively trying to mitigate the risk of the father not contributing to raising the child. So while women do take risks, they are also more risk averse as the consequences for making a mistake tend to be higher.

QueenSophia · Yesterday 21:15

Owninterpreter · Yesterday 07:21

What a cool job. I hope its ok to ask a question.but are we just framing risk through a male lens as in the types of rusks men take are called risk but the ones women take are ignored. I was thinking about pregnancy and birth here. Its a huge risk many women take. Theres a strong chance you could end up raising a child alone. Theres sadly a risk of injury and death, domestic violence often starts then. Outside of childbirth things like starting a new relationship carry a risk of violence that is less present for men but most people wouldnt describe that as risk taking behaviour.

So o guess im asking does risk have a specific meaning in psychology and is it male biased

That's a good point. I agree with pp's reply to you too, but I do think female risks are often overlooked. Eg. Teen boys generally take more risks and do more obviously risky things but popular teen girl hobbies include fairly risky ones such as riding, gymnastics and cheerleading.

OP posts:
AlgaeDreams · Today 01:21

OtterandaRock · 13/06/2026 05:53

This is the first thread I have seen and it is about telling women to stay in our lane. Which boards do you frequent? I lurk on Style & Beauty and What We're Reading. Not seen many boiler suit or hardware manual recommendations.

You want Dickies workwear, good quality stuff. I know that after working for one of the UK's top 3 builders merchants.
As a laydeee.

AlgaeDreams · Today 01:34

Wishing14 · 13/06/2026 02:51

There are jobs that are FAR more physically taxing than care work! Drainage work - pulling through liners and extremely heavy equipment, deep excavation by hand, confined spaces, Groundwork’s and trenching, Demolition- breaking out concrete etc, Offshore rig work, Rail track work, Mining and tunnelling, tree surgery, timber work, hauling equipment, concreting and construction, utility excavation etc.
Some jobs involve constant heavy work, with long 10 or 12 hour days in dangerous and often highly unpleasant conditions.
Many woman could not or would not want to do many of these roles. They are literally back breaking and many of these men are in agony with bad backs by middle age. Many men keep the country going, in many ways and men are physically stronger on average, with greater upper-body strength, grip strength, and muscle mass. That is simply a fact that cannot be disputed. It’s not to say women are not important and women cannot do things men cannot do (we can have babies after all!) But it’s ridiculous to say that women work on average physically as much as men do! Me and my partner work as much and as hard as each other, but my job is mentally tiring, his is physically tiring.

These are quite niche jobs and the pay reflects that. They're not your standard trade job though which many women could easily do.
It's a bit late now, but I wish that rather than go to university, that I'd studied car mechanics. My garage man used to love me as I'd source my own parts for my old bangers and he'd fit them.

I do love a power tool too.

Anyway...

AlgaeDreams · Today 01:36

HelmholtzWatson · Yesterday 07:50

Yes, women take risks too. One thing people consistently get wrong about sex differences is an "all-or-nothing" approach. So, both sexes take risks, but on average men just take more risks. Indeed, both sexes take fewer risks once they have had children. In men, their testosterone level roughly halves when they have a child, which lowers their predisposition to risk taking. So, the environment also plays a role, albeit driven by biology in this instance.

It's certainly true having a child is an inherently risky business. This is why women are more choosy when it comes to selecting a partner. They are actively trying to mitigate the risk of the father not contributing to raising the child. So while women do take risks, they are also more risk averse as the consequences for making a mistake tend to be higher.

Edited

Did you ever see the Jeremy Kyle Show?

AlgaeDreams · Today 02:04

OtterandaRock · 13/06/2026 08:41

If only I had read this thread when the delivery men left 2 bedsteads at the bottom of the stairs and refused to attempt the stairs.

Then I wouldn't have moved the bedsteads myself.

Using applied maths to make the turning force work with me.

I should not know maths.

Eliminate me quick, I am an enemy of the newly manly state.

Shush!

Next you'll be talking us through how to get a sofa through a doorframe at the correct angle because it's the only possible way.

You can ram it head on as hard as you like fellas, but it's not happening.

Excuse me again gentlemen, but if you lay the sofa upside down, you'll see that you can remove the armrests by unscrewing them. It should glide through after you've knocked that 70cm off.

Don't push the appliance - shuffle it. Okay, you've got it where it needs to go, no shuffle room.
STOP PUSHING with your arms you're just tilting it.
Ensure plugs are either in or free, then sit on your arse and use your feet and your leg strength for the perfect fit.

It's turning into Viz top tips.

Wallpapering - just stick it up with blu tack so you can take it with you when you move.

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