To think people in gender pay gap discussions who say women should go into trades to get a higher paid job ignore that a lot of trades are physically too demanding for a large number of women to do (though of course some do and can)?

[QueenSophia]

In a lot of gender pay gap discussions I've seen here & elsewhere, people note that male dominated jobs like building, plumbing etc are higher paid than female equivalents like the 5 Cs so women could improve the gender pay gap by going into those.

To me this is unfair as it ignores that a lot of women are not physically strong enough to do these jobs long term. Obviously some can & that's great but a lot will not be able to. Just saying women who would otherwise go into caring, cleaning etc should be plumbers, electricians etc is not reasonable for many.

AIBU?

Caring is incredibly physically demanding, especially moving and turning larger folk.

I'd say lifting patients as a carer is far more physically demanding than - fitting a radiator, adding a washer to a leaky tap, installing wiring and screwing in plug sockets.
Even cleaning is sometimes more physically demanding than a trade.

I don't think women in their 20s don't go into building and plumbing because things will be too heavy for them in a few years time.

There are jobs that are FAR more physically taxing than care work! Drainage work - pulling through liners and extremely heavy equipment, deep excavation by hand, confined spaces, Groundwork’s and trenching, Demolition- breaking out concrete etc, Offshore rig work, Rail track work, Mining and tunnelling, tree surgery, timber work, hauling equipment, concreting and construction, utility excavation etc.
Some jobs involve constant heavy work, with long 10 or 12 hour days in dangerous and often highly unpleasant conditions.
Many woman could not or would not want to do many of these roles. They are literally back breaking and many of these men are in agony with bad backs by middle age. Many men keep the country going, in many ways and men are physically stronger on average, with greater upper-body strength, grip strength, and muscle mass. That is simply a fact that cannot be disputed. It’s not to say women are not important and women cannot do things men cannot do (we can have babies after all!) But it’s ridiculous to say that women work on average physically as much as men do! Me and my partner work as much and as hard as each other, but my job is mentally tiring, his is physically tiring.

Being an electrician? Being a plumber? Being a line cook? These are not too taxing for a woman to do at all. Women all over the world do enormously heavy stoop farm labour for hours on end. They walk for hours carrying furl and water.Funny that this is not considered too hard for them.

There is no reason women couldn’t do the vast majority of jobs, they would build up strength and stamina over time the same as men do. there are also many men who would struggle with physically hard work. so yes i think you’re being unreasonable

it's not so much about physical demand, it's risk of injury and death. 90-95% of deaths at work are men, and therefore they are paid more to take on that risk.

I think the issue is that jobs that are female dominated, such as carers and childcare, aren't paid enough for the level of responsibility or to actually live off in many cases.. People should be paid fairly for the work they want to do, not forced into anorher profession just because the pay is fairer.

There are many issues with how the gender pay gap is calculated.

How much care work have you done?
How many people 2x your weight in wheelchairs have you manœuvred up and down ramps?

The risk of sexual and physical assault, and verbal abuse, is pretty high for cleaners and carers.

Everyone is endlessly being told to become a plumber on here at the moment or to encourage their kids to be one, it’s quite irritating. Its a great job but irs not for everyone. And not everyone can or wants to do it!

It may have been under New Labour but there was a subsidised programme for getting women into trades a few decades back. It was vastly oversubscribed.

Even though it is proven that from birth girl babies are cuddled more and treated softly, and discriminated against by being given toys that do not develop coordination like boys' toys, and dissuaded from ungentle behaviour and physical risks.

I am not saying men and women are the same, but there is vastly more overlap than today's retrogressives would like.

See also: Sojourner Truth
https://www.thesojournertruthproject.com/compare-the-speeches

However you want to cut it, things like death, losing limbs or ending up in a wheelchair impact QoL far more than any kind of assault.

Hence why those jobs are better paid.

This is the first thread I have seen and it is about telling women to stay in our lane. Which boards do you frequent? I lurk on Style & Beauty and What We're Reading. Not seen many boiler suit or hardware manual recommendations.

You seem not to know the health outcomes of sexual assault. Or infection rates in informal and formal care work (see what happened to carers during the pandemic).

Carers keep people alive. Is that not valuable work?

If YOU MIGHT DIE is the measure of pay, that is pretty toxic.

By the way, what are Sherpas paid?

In a row about pay I wouldn’t compare the trades and care work anyway. Electricians and plumbers are skilled and qualified. I would compare more in line with nursing where they may be less of a pay gap depending on grade and experience. Care work would be more in line with general labouring work where I imagine there is less pay difference.

That is not to disparage any of the roles mentioned. Caring is incredibly demanding.

I do not see this as a row about pay but another Awww Little Woman sinister cultural ladybrain drift

Don't assume what I do and don't know.

You can set up as many strawmen as you like, but the market sets the rate of pay and it turns out that you have to pay people better if they are more likely to die doing their job.

Great, maybe go and start your own thread somewhere about "Awww Little Woman sinister cultural ladybrain drift" so we can discuss pay.

I'd say lifting patients as a carer is far more physically demanding

Noone should be "lifting" anyone in care- thats what hoists and OT equipment is for and if people are doing this then they are not following manual handling procedures correctly.

I am deducing, not assuming.

Are flight attendants with ruined backs, feet, and ankles, and at risk of terrorism, paid lots? Genuinely unsure

Nice move with the 'we' versus 'you'.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z2932p3/revision/5

"[...]

Goebbels said: The mission of women is to be beautiful and to bring children into the world.
Women were important to the Nazis, however, the Nazis believed that the role of the woman was in the home and with her family, not in the world of work.
Marriage and family
Hitler wanted a high birth rate so that the Aryan population would grow. He tried to achieve this by:
introducing the Law for the Encouragement of Marriage which gave newlywed couples a loan of 1,000 marks, and allowed them to keep 250 marks for each child they had
giving an award called the Mother’s Cross to women who had large numbers of children
allowing women to volunteer to have a baby for an Aryan member of the SS
Employment
Measures were introduced which strongly discouraged women from working, including:
the introduction of the Law for the Reduction of Unemployment, which gave women financial incentives to stay at home
not conscripting women to help in the war effort until 1943
However, female labour was cheap and between 1933 and 1939 the number of women in employment actually rose by 2.4 million. As the German economy grew, women were needed in the workplace.
Appearance
Women were expected to emulate traditional German peasant fashions - plain peasant costumes, hair in plaits or buns and flat shoes. They were not expected to wear make-up or trousers, dye their hair or smoke in public. They were discouraged from staying slim, because it was thought that thin women had trouble giving birth.
Revision tip:
A good mnemonic to help you remember the facts about Nazi women is:
C - Children
H - Home
A - Appearace
R - Rewards
M - Marriage
E - Employment
D - Domestic"

Leaving this here and going to unmaternal work :)

I’m finding this conversation really
odd. The gender pay gap is primarily about women being paid less to do the same job. How strong someone is is pretty unrelated to how much they should be paid? A man may well be able to dig a nice big ditch but are we valuing digging ditches over something else ( eg making electronic components) because it requires strength ?

@OtterandaRockI haven’t done care work but I have attempted some of the things I have listed, alongside men and struggled with many aspects of it! I am strong, do weight lifting, and could do a lot, but not consistently, not as much or as fast as the men. I don’t think many people fully understand some of the aspects of these jobs. That’s my point. Have you worked as a ground worker or similar?