To think people in gender pay gap discussions who say women should go into trades to get a higher paid job ignore that a lot of trades are physically too demanding for a large number of women to do (though of course some do and can)?

[QueenSophia]

In a lot of gender pay gap discussions I've seen here & elsewhere, people note that male dominated jobs like building, plumbing etc are higher paid than female equivalents like the 5 Cs so women could improve the gender pay gap by going into those.

To me this is unfair as it ignores that a lot of women are not physically strong enough to do these jobs long term. Obviously some can & that's great but a lot will not be able to. Just saying women who would otherwise go into caring, cleaning etc should be plumbers, electricians etc is not reasonable for many.

AIBU?

No employer willingly pays more than they have to to get the work done.

Not surprised they are appealing because that comparison is odd. I have experience in both settings and I am absolutely for warehouse staff getting more money! 👀

I would argue that assertiveness which resembles or requires disagreeability is only one and quite a patriarchal style of power.

Thanks for your answer, though.

Look at the studies.

And each employer is operating as an individual employer in a market, so if they don't offer 'the going rate' for a role that is gendered male, they won't get any takers.
But they can offer a lower 'going rate' for a different role that is gendered female and still find takers, because the women are not getting better offers for that role elsewhere.

You don't seem to understand how the market operates in a gendered society, a patriarchal society.

So transwomen can compete with women because there's now no physical difference?
@QueenSophia I agree, there's a difference in hand strength alone, but on here, women can have babies as late as they like, people just lived a long time, they don't age (so aren't made allowances for) and the majority of women can do a job that would be physically demanding for a man, day in, day out, through pregnancy, menopause. The reality would be a short working life and nowhere to go once pregnant. The hours aren't family friendly, either. It's better to concentrate on equal relationships and breaking down sexist stereotypes, as well as having a child maintenance service that works.

“Alarming research published by the Considerate Constructors Scheme found that 59 per cent of those surveyed had concerns over the effects of drugs and alcohol in construction, 35 per cent noticed their colleagues under the influence of drugs and alcohol, and 25 per cent agreed that drugs and alcohol affected them at work through tiredness,” he said. “This simply cannot be allowed to continue.”https://gateleyplc.com/insight/article/does-construction-have-a-substance-abuse-problem-and-what-can-it-do-about-it/

I salute you! People seem to struggle with the concept that women can be naturally strong or they can build more muscle and become strong/er.

I understand exactly how it works, but employers aren't paying men more because they are men and women less because they are women.

They are paying men more because the men won't work for less and women less because they will.

Yes, we know that. You seem to not understand how muscles work? You don’t get a fixed set.

I suggest you look at the ‘plasteredsisters’ on Instagram. HTH.

This a long standing argument, but actually, very few jobs in the West are that dangerous, and those that are, aren't actually paid particularly well. Infantry soldier must be the ultimate example.

Nobody is struggling with that concept.

You and others, though, seem to be struggling with the concept of average strength levels between the sexes.

Nobody is saying no woman can do plastering.

I think there is some confusion over what the gender pay gap is.

In my company we have a gender pay gap which means that on average for every £1 a man is paid, women are paid £0.70. There are proportionally more men in higher paid roles and more women in lower paid roles. In the bottom quartile, women are the majority, in the upper quartile men are the majority. Part time roles are factored in at the equivalent pro rated salary so more women working part time doesn’t skew the figures in that sense (but a lot of the part time roles aren’t paid as much pro rata anyway)

In general, there are more male directors than female, and more women in the lowest paid jobs. Our graduate recruitment ratio is generally 50/50 male to female, so with everything else being equal, you would expect that over the years senior positions to also be 50/50. This isn’t the case, hence the gender pay gap.

Men are better at some jobs, namely those requiring physical strength, and women are better at others.
Yes there will be exceptions and equality of opportunity should exist for this reason.

Once you grasp that men and women have evolved to be different, it is not a controversial concept at all.
Men are more likely to undertake risky jobs, women are less prone to do so, thus, in a fair and just society, men get paid more for being a roofer than a HR employee.

But if a woman wishes to be a roofer, she gets paid the same.

I see it as swings and roundabouts.
Women in some ways have it easier then men and vice versa.
Women have it more difficult than men and vice versa.

There's no point railing against it. Once you accept that the blank slate concept is b. s. It all makes sense.

@OtterandaRock does sniping require much in the way of physical strength or is it about patience and good focus?

I’m not saying all women can do physical jobs, but some can if they want. There are women in trades, so this is a thing. Lots of people are talking like it’s impossible. Some of us have the capacity to be stronger if we wish.

I agree that women just doing a trade won't adress the gender pay gap. For a start wages go down when women enter a particular field in big numbers anyway.

A lot of women have legitimate worries about macho cultures, lone working risks and self employment making pregnancy and mat leave very challenging.

If women want to do and are capable then they should and thats great, but plenty of women dont want to do physical jobs geared around male bodies. In fact plenty of men don't want to do physical jobs.

Many of the men that do them, end up very damaged by them. Theres also stats about female athletes being more prone to injuries at certain points in thier cycle, so id think there's a chance we'd be more prone to injury than men not just equally broken.

So what are you talking about then? I said women can do plastering, you’re the one talking about their arms and necks.

I also wonder why window cleaners near me charge 4 x more per hour than domestic cleaners. And, I've yet to find one who does a good job - they usually don't bother with the sills.

Yes, they have specialist equipment but my cleaner brings her own cleaning stuff and hoover and works very hard and efficiently. And she isn't earning minimum wage either.

I've worked in farming and gardening all my life.These are hard, physical professions, often alone (so not much chatting going on - that point!?!? FOR FUCKS SAKE), mostly outdoors in all winds and weathers. Farming is up there with dangerous professions.

A third of all agricultural workers and half of all gardeners in this country are women.

I would say the greatest barriers to women entering and working in the trades is the attitude, manners and antiquated endemic sexism they encounter from their male workmates.

The truth is a lot of manual work is brutal. A lot of men are not physically strong enough to do these jobs long term. Obviously some can & that's great but a lot will not be able to.

In the UK construction trainees are about 90% male.
Tthe drop out rate of construction trainees is 50%
Tells you all you need to know really. It's hard, people get out whether they're men or women.

I'm now part of a cooperative of tradeswomen in my town. We are plumbers, gardeners, locksmiths, electricians, landscapers etc. The atmosphere amongst us is the most supportive I've ever known. Our staff are 90% women and we attract mostly women trainees because we are decent to them, don't call them 'love' and don't relentlessly make jokes about them putting the kettle on. We don't shit behind sheds, ask if they're on their period or draw cocks and balls on their sandwich box.

Men (not all men, and that's 'great') are the thing keeping women out of the trades. That and women telling them they aren't strong enough.

Which is kind of what I said.
In a patriarchy, men's roles are paid more. And each individual man and individual employer goes along with the market rate, in the context of the patriarchy that gives that role a higher value.
Women's work is deemed of lower value by society, and individual women still take it because they need a job.

Employers know full well they can't pay men and women differently for the same role. But they also know 'the market rate' for each role. And isn't it funny how the 'market rate' for male-gendered roles is always higher?

Are you OK? As a woman, I know I am physically much weaker than a man, that’s a biological fact which I am not arguing. My point is that women can go into trades if they wish. A lot of women also have the capacity to be stronger if they want. I’m not sure what part of this you are struggling with?

This thread is very strange. Surely no one is saying that men aren’t stronger than women and that there are jobs women would struggle to do because of that.

The point is that society pays the jobs that require strength more because they are done by men. Let’s take nursery staff, a very important job, looking after, caring for and teaching the next generation. Mainly done by women and therefore poorly paid and undervalued. You could claim that men could easily do that job, well they could but actually I to t think they’d be very good at it and secondly I do t honestly think society wants them to (and we all know why - risk).

There is also an element of society still believing that doing things that require using machinery or anything that is perceived as technical eg plumbing/electrical work can’t be done by women which is of course sexist and ridiculous. It’s actually pretty easy, you just need to study it.

Lastly someone mentioned the war. Many many jobs never before done by women had to be done by them during the war as the men were away fighting and they were paid less. Many were genuinely surprised by how women ‘managed’ to step up this however as soon as the men came back women were told to get back in their lane.

The trades require training and courses which tend not to be open to girls at Sixth Form/College/Apprenticeship level

There are very few 'part time' trades

Many tradies travel to job sites miles away from where they live - they end up in digs/B&Bs/hostels while they fit out sites

While women have the capacity to become electricians (we're not likely to be colourblind), plumbers and carpenters, how many girls are offered technical studies, woodworking, DT or physics at school?

You said you don't need physical strength. You definitely need physical strength.