To think people in gender pay gap discussions who say women should go into trades to get a higher paid job ignore that a lot of trades are physically too demanding for a large number of women to do (though of course some do and can)?

[QueenSophia]

In a lot of gender pay gap discussions I've seen here & elsewhere, people note that male dominated jobs like building, plumbing etc are higher paid than female equivalents like the 5 Cs so women could improve the gender pay gap by going into those.

To me this is unfair as it ignores that a lot of women are not physically strong enough to do these jobs long term. Obviously some can & that's great but a lot will not be able to. Just saying women who would otherwise go into caring, cleaning etc should be plumbers, electricians etc is not reasonable for many.

AIBU?

Thinking about it it is probably lack of opportunity to train, study while running a home, bringing up children.

@OtterandaRockwhat is the alternative?

Sorry, your reasoning is that women place a financial value on time to chat and therefore take on ill paid roles

and that lower paid work necessarily means more time to chat?

Those are quite some leaps.

Women in my family were working pre war and post war. There isn't a single example of a woman in my family who has not worked in paid employment. This whole "women stayed at home" rhetoric is bullshit.

Yes and men not sharing domestic labour or parenting properly.

No.
I love it when people say no as if that's the definitive answer. Like a parent talking to a child. Lol.

I repeat: people who work dangerous jobs where their life (every time they do it) is at stake DESERVE to be paid more than those whose lives are not - as a general rule-are not threatened by doing their job.

Anyway I don't care what you think, that's the way it works in the real world.
Whether somebody agrees with it or not is irrelevant.
It's like raging against the weather.

(This was meant in reply to the women choose lower paid roles so they can chat)

Sometimes it's flexibility because women are expected to be the default parent.
Sometimes it's expectation where, as shown on this thread, trades and certain jobs are considered a good fit for women.
Sometimes it's societal where jobs women traditionally do are paid less. And women are more likely to go into that because tradition, expectations, role models etc.
Sometimes it's women don't get promoted to the higher paid roles for various reasons, mainly coming down to sexism

I think a lot of it is also due to the fact that many bosses in trades like plumbing, electricians, etc, simply don't want to take on young women as apprentices.

I remember reading an article a few years ago about a female cabinet-maker who'd just won an industry award. She had to apply at hundreds of different places before she found someone who was willing to give her an apprenticeship. Even her own grandfather - who was a cabinet-maker himself and ran his own successful business - refused to take her on, because he didn't believe the cabinet-making industry was a "good fit" for young women.

@QuintadosMalvadosi agree but they often aren’t. Many men in dangerous roles in trenches and operating dangerous machinery in drainage for example are paid the same as someone on the til at the checkout. Many men in the roles people are arguing about are paid a pittance, UNLESS they start their own business. Minimum wage increases mean skilled jobs operating machinery or dangerous physical roles are not always the better option. Hence why I think many men have it quite difficult. (Many women do too!!)

I wouldn’t have become a plumber or an electrician not because of strength but because I wouldn’t want a job that entailed me going into strangers houses alone, also they wouldn’t necessarily be safe jobs to do during pregnancy and if you work for yourself then there’s no maternity leave.

Surely history said that the women were forced back to the home so that men returning from War could get jobs.
Also probably depends where you were - almost no women worked in the more rural area where I grew up except single women.

It is quite funny and patriarchal that the dramatic harm of losing a limb is valued more than the invisible but real damage caused by (for example) endless sitting. Diabetes and hypertension and osteoporosis, anyone?

It is also deeply classist.

The human beings down the mines for rare earths are hardly top earners.

My specific construction role was recognised as one of the most dangerous jobs in construction. I think in the U.K. only being a fisherman was considered more dangerous. I had two colleagues die in the years I did the job. So 25 years ago I was earning 50k. Which was an awful lot of money for a 21yo. I’m sure the reason it was paid so well was due to the danger (and the sewage).

What’s your source for that statistic?

Did the women have no rural tasks? I have never known an idle woman in a properly rural family.

That's work even if unpaid because gendered.

Exactly. These are very highly skilled, potentially highly paid jobs and great careers, I'm not disputing this for a second.

I'm just fed up of people kneejerking to the "he/she should get a trade" response whenever a question is raised about the opportunities for their kids.

25 years ago everyone was encouraged to go to university, regardless of their aptitude, and we have a glut of people with meaningless degrees. The pendulum has now swung too far in the other direction and everyone is being told to become a plumber. But a glut of plumbers is just as bad an idea as a glut of people with Circus Studies degrees.

I think jobs that carry a risk of death deserve to be paid more, regardless of sex.

But Mike in accounts, who gets paid more than Julie, for the same job, does not.

The risk of death by papercut will be the same.

How many electricians and plumbers do you think are dying in the Uk?!

Don't knock Circus Studies. You can DIE falling off a trapeze.

It is not useless for a population of voters to acquire critical thinking skills.

I wish I had put my electrician under the patio

Mt563
God. Still so much stereotyping. Women want to talk. Women are weak. Women can't run businesses.

Most men have more physical strength than women, doesn’t mean they’re weak but in so many cases a man will be physically stronger. I hate that we can argue differences in sport or violence on mn but women won’t acknowledge the difference between something everyday that we need physical strength for. There are certain things I will not be able to do because I cannot stand over the strength I have to tighten/ close what needs to be tightened or closed whereas a man will just do it.

@OtterandaRocki would still love to know what the alternative to the market is? So I can begin critical thinking!

I worked on site. I saw women electricians and painters a decent amount and the odd carpenter and one plumber but not really block layers/plasterers for the reasons you say I’d imagine. Lots of women in professional roles though.

I don't care about any of what you say here to be honest.

This is an Internet forum and I'm just expressing my firmly held and unshakeable opinion that if a person risks their life everyday in their job they should be paid more than somebody who doesn't.

If we believe Jordan Peterson (and there is some evidence to support this), women largely aren’t interested in those sort of jobs anyway. It’s the gender equality paradox. He uses Scandinavia as the case study, they’ve had gender equality and anti discrimination laws in place for many years and have a high level of females in the workforce, yet still a low amount in traditionally male jobs like construction. Also been proven that in countries with high gender equality levels, women going into STEM is still very low.

So it could just be that women don’t like those jobs? I’m only one woman so can’t speak for all but I wouldn’t want to do it.