To want to move back to england with my 5 children

[tryingtogohome]

Hi sorry if this is all over the place

I live in Poland with my partner who is Polish and we have 5 boys 15 11 5 3 and 10 months and im pregnant again 25 weeks

I keep thinking about leaving him and going back to England but then i think im being stupid because ive been here so long and dont even know where id start anymore.

I dont really have anybody. No family. I grew up in care and havent spoken to anyone from my past for years and years.

Things have got worse between me and my partner. Hes always saying what a real man should be and boys shouldnt cry and things like that. My 15 year old argues with him constanly (constantly) now and the whole house feels tense all the time.

This is going to sound silly but i keep feeling like this baby is a girl and every time i say it he gets annoyed. Not shouting just annoyed and says he doesnt want a daughter and what would he do with a girl and says hopefully im wrong. Maybe im overreacting but it upsets me more than it should.

I dont know if its hormones.

I keep looking at Doncaster and Rotherham and Sheffield on my phone when everyone is asleep and then crying because i dont even know if my children could go to school there after living here all this time or where we would live.

I know people will say leave if youre unhappy but it isnt that easy when youve got this many children and no money and nowhere to go.

Am i being unreasonable wanting to go back to England or does this sound completly mad after 11 years away

I do speak Polish, not perfectly but enough for day to day things and appointments and schools etc. I didnt when i first came here but i do now.

I dont really have any friends though. I had a couple years ago but not anymore. Everyone sort of drifted away and i dont really go anywhere without the children now.
All of the children are his. They were all born in England apart from the baby who is 10 months. He came early at 31 weeks and was in hospital for a while and thats part of whats panicing me this time because im pregnant again and keep worrying the same thing will happen.

I dont know about passports off the top of my head because my head is all over the place today. The older boys definitely have British passports. I think the younger ones do as well but I'd have to check.

Something happened yesterday that i cant stop thinking about. I went out with the baby and when i got back my partner had shaved my 3 year olds hair off. He had lovely little curls and now half his head is basically shaved. He said it was only hair and he was messing about but my little boy was crying and didnt want anyone looking at him.

Maybe that sounds stupid compared to bigger problems but it really upset me. Hes only 3.

We do understand but it isn't that easy. You aren't entitled to housing or benefits here as you are not habitually resident. You can't bring the children without his consent. Yes physically you probably could but then you are in deep shit if he reports it and I suspect he will, he sounds like the kind of nasty vindictive sod who would just to prove he's the boss and to make you suffer.

It is going to be hard and you are going to have to fight for everything but the best thing you can do now is get information, find out how you stand legally, what help is available in Poland.

The thing is OP, you have five (soon to be six) children - even if your partner agrees to you moving them to the UK, how are you going to support yourself? You won't be entitled to benefits or a council house

Bless you. I do understand and am angry on your behalf. Stay strong and get support. Many posters do support you and want to see you break free.

You might not return straight away but for me once I started getting support in the country I was trapped in it did help. Maybe contact one of the groups people have suggested. Take small steps forward. Truly one step at a time was how I survived and you will too.

💐stay strong 💪

Op I think you need to seek help in Poland first.
And if that means separate there then work out how you get you and kids back to England later then so be it.

Lawyers aren't exactly fast I can't imagine Poland is much different.
I have a friend desperate to leave the UK, its taken over a year to even get a holiday home agreed. She had been hoping to get agreement to leave permanently.

If you can begin applying for jobs in the UK and you can show that you have a chance of actually getting some work, which would be greatly beneficial to any application to relocate.
I am sure that the boys would be happier in a house with less tension but that’s not the same as them being happier in the UK. What about friends, language barriers etc? Wouldn’t they be happier staying in Poland but with you and their dad separating?
Theres unfortunately just no real way around the fact that he needs to consent to a relocation. Can you work intensely on language skills and get your Polish improved so that you can work over there?

You're farting against thunder trying to get back to the UK with such a large brood and no job prospects for several years whilst you're raising them. Staying in Poland but separating seems your most realistic plan.

OP, do you get the benefits paid to you? That’s where I would start. Make sure you have that income.

Next contact one of the Polish charities for support in leaving but remaining in Poland.

You need to have a conversation with your DH about the nhs births. You say you’re not defrauding the nhs but also say he does all the paperwork. Make sure he’s been honest, you don’t need a massive bill heading your way.

Look at ways you can get back into the workplace in the future. Maybe some training opportunities.

I think once you are living separate lives you can judge how much input your DH will want with the children. It maybe he would not block a move back in the future if the alternative is him having to step up and parent 50%of the time alone.

Does he work? If so you’d presumably get maintenance payments too.

@tinyspiny im a Brit living in France if i need NHS care whilst in England i give my EHIC and France and our private mutuelle get charged I imagine it’s the same for OP. She doesn’t have a UK address she can’t defraud the system.

I disagree. Many, many people who come here from abroad work and pay taxes here. The OP will have no way of supporting herself and working if she comes back here. How are you supposed to support yourself with six children. She’ll need a house with at least three/four bedrooms. She’ll need childcare which would probably cost more than any salary she might earn and she’s unlikely to earn enough to pay taxes. All of this is going to be the burden of the state. We have to get away from the idea that people should just be helpless and rely on the taxpayer to fund everything.

How can she say she hasn’t defrauded the NHS when she clearly has as people have explained on here numerous times. Just because she’s got away with it doesn’t mean she should do.

It’s horrifying that she is probably still of childbearing age.

I’m sympathetic to people who take responsibility for themselves and do their best to make a life but not to those who just expect others to pick up the pieces. There are plenty of people who have been in care but manage not to have so many children they can’t support.

Both things can be true. You can be missing home, unhappy in your relationship, needing a way out for you and your DC and wanting support. You can at the same time have defrauded the NHS (unless you're saying you paid for all the UK births, which seems unlikely from the way you've described it), be effectively planning to steal six children (if you move them from their home country to UK), and live off the state (limited options with all the children, no job or UK family, again unless you have significant funds which I feel like you'd have mentioned).

I have sympathy with your relationship breakdown, it sounds like many long-term relationships where the love has worn away and you don't like what you see in him now, especially with the kids, and few could thrive with so many kids and being in another country with little to no support network. It's no wonder you're longing for escape. There's nothing evil about that, it's very normal and you should talk to the Polish women's charities listed upthread to get some help and start figuring out how to separate and live independently over there for now.

It's the moving back that's clouding the issue and feels like a step too far in your circumstances. He's an arse in many ways, but despite some posters amping this up to domestic abuse worthy of police reports and fleeing the country, it feels more on the level of a long, failing relationship where the OP has been sleepwalking through it and is finally finding it's not what she wants for her or her DC. This needs dealing with like adults, not running away like one or the other is a criminal. They are both the parents of a lot of DC who will need them both, and while there are no doubt ways in which some of the DC may be happier away from their dad, there's also no doubt it will mess them up to move countries away from their dad, friends, and everything they know. No one is evil here. Few people are evil, but we can be complex and contradictory, and mostly trying our best but sometimes with conflicting goals and it can be hard to see what's best. There needs to be balance and planning so as not to make more mistakes.

I'm genuinely surprised by you choosing to come to the UK for obstetrics. Most of my Polish friends did the exact opposite and went back to Poland to give birth because they felt the standard of maternity care was significantly better than what was available to them through the NHS.

OP, please get proper legal advice rather than relying on internet opinions. The Hague Convention is relevant, but it's not an automatic "child goes back, case closed" situation. There are recognised exceptions and defences, and whether any of them apply will depend on the specifics of your case.

As for your husband, based purely on what you've written, he sounds unsympathetic and lacking in emotional intelligence, but not obviously abusive. I appreciate that's not a popular distinction online, but they aren't the same thing. If he is now the sole breadwinner for a large family, there may be pressures on him that you're not fully seeing either.

Would marriage counselling be an option before making any irreversible decisions? If you / your husband are practising Catholics, many parishes offer relationship counselling or support services at no cost in Poland.

I'd also gently caution against viewing Poland through the lens of what it was twenty years ago. Financial support for families is considerably more generous than many people realise. Childcare is heavily subsidised, and for larger families there are amazing tax advantages and family benefits. Depending on your circumstances, the practical gap between raising children in Poland and the UK is probably massively in Poland's favour today.

Because the children currently live in Poland, their "habitual residence" is legally Poland. Even though they have British citizenship, you cannot legally move them to the UK without the father's explicit written consent or a Polish court order. Doing so without his permission is legally classified as international child abduction under the Hague Convention. If you flee to the UK with the kids, a UK court could force you to send the children back to Poland to resolve the custody dispute there. It's the same if you refuse to return them to Poland after giving birth in the UK. So you need to stay in Poland for now, you have no choice. I'm sorry, I know it's not what you want, but you can't risk it.

Try to contact Fundacja Ocalenie, they provide free legal assistance in family law matters for foreigners, in English. They have lawyers who will help you understand where you stand, and what your next steps should be.

I’ve just been reading about abortion law in Poland, as this thread made me wonder. I was quite shocked at how severe they are.

‘Abortion in Poland is severely restricted and operates under a near-total ban. Terminations are legally permitted in only two scenarios: if the pregnancy threatens the pregnant woman’s life or health, or if it is the result of a criminal act (such as rape or incest)’

You are defrauding the NHS. Unless youre going to turn around and claim your partner has now paid for you to receive private healthcare in the UK five times now?
Im sorry you dont have family in the UK but at some point as women we have to own our life choices. At any stage during one of your five labours in the UK you could have had your tubes tied.
Sometimes in life there isnt really any U-turning and you do just have to lie in the bed you made.
Realistically, with 6 children, you are not coming back to the UK now for another 18 years.
You will need to focus on divorcing from your husband and making the best of life in Poland for now.

A side point maybe, but plenty of blokes in Doncaster and Rotherham will do the boys don't cry schtick too. I'm a northerner and have a lot of love for the north, but let's not pretend it's some idyll where your kids will grow up free of that notion. Plus fatherlessness is being cited as a factor in the recent masculinity crisis, where boys can become more aggressively masculine without their dads around. Not always ofc but the idea you can get them away from him to fix this needs a lot more thought than the impulse to get home and things will be better. As I said, it's complicated and no wonder you're overwhelmed, but talking to the women's charities there is a good start to understanding realistic next steps.

I understand you mean well, but Poland is a much more conservative society than the UK. If the allegations of "abuse" amount to the children's father making sexist or homophobic remarks, saying boys shouldn't cry, or objecting to the mother returning to work outside the home while a baby is still very young, nurseries / support organisations are extremely unlikely to view that as grounds for limiting contact between father and children. She will be laughed out of the room.

I have that Bridget Jones scene in the Thai prison in mind now - something like that.

@tryingtogohome

Can you try suggesting that you come back at the start of the summer holidays just in case the baby comes early again? Maybe then you could have a good few weeks to get established in England.

You could speak to Women's Aid, set up bank accounts, look for housing and schools. That way you would all be established back over here and have a better chance of being able to stay if it looks like the plan was to settle here once the new baby was born

Yeah, and then her partner will get her arrested for kidnapping and she'll potentially lose access forever.

Great idea!

As many others have said. If your values don’t align with your husband and you don’t like the behaviors he is modeling for your children - you should leave him.
but you need to do that in Poland, not try to return to the UK.

This case is Italy-Spain, but works the same. Both are signatories of the Hague convention. Spanish mother absconds to Spain with the 2 kids she had with her Italian husband. Italian husband goes to court to get them back under Hague Convention. She files in Spain for divorce and parental arrangements. Courts say she should´ve filed in Italy, as her habitual address, orders kids to be returned to Italy. She goes into hiding with said kids. Police find her, kids are returned and she was sentenced to jail term for all these antics. The Council of Ministers gave her a pardon, and that´s why she didn´t end with her butt in jail.

OP don´t make the same mistakes as this mother. Get legal advice in Poland and file for separation/divorce in Poland. Then move on from there.

But OP can't you see that you don't have the right to deprive your DH of his children any more than he can take them off to another country without you??

If he won't give permission for them to go to the UK and he won't come with you then you are simply going to have to stay in Poland but seperate from him, or leave the children with him and come to the UK alone.

I'm sorry that you are so unhappy but you don't have the legal - or moral - right to just take them!

And I’m sorry but you need to stop potentially defrauding the NHS and have your baby there in Poland.

Your original post says all your children bar one were born in the UK, which means that if you are a UK citizen, they will be UK citizens. I don't know if they have dual nationality.

Poland is a very traditional society, very patriarchal, and far less tolerant around issues of religion, sexuality, male and female roles etc. OTOH, I have found, when working in Poland (my late father was Polish) that the education system seems to lead to better outcomes than the UK one. I was working with Polish undergraduates, and they were much more academic, focused and mature than their UK equivalents. I don't know if that extends to younger ages.

You need to get legal advice. I would try the embassy, or try and contact a UK women's support network who will be able to give you a clearer idea of your rights. Your marriage sounds unhappy and your partner doesn't seem able to be understanding of your wishes for your children.

Not if the whole family have come back together? Surely then she could argue that they moved back to England

But the question of how they will all live seems not to have been answered. Given that OP has felt comfortable enough to misuse the NHS four times, I am assuming she can’t support all of her children herself.

The children only know Poland and I assume the father works. Why drag them to another country to start again?