Aibu to think that clean eating isn’t that bad?

[arethereanyleftatall]

DD, 17, only eats ‘clean’. She eats like this because she says she feels much better on it, and for her that’s a priority above all else. And, to be fair to her, she’s thriving. Doing well at alevels, volunteering, working, and generally a wonderfully bright and joyous person to be around. This is in stark contrast to the gcse years with school refusal, period pains, excessive sleeping, no homework completed ever.
if it’s relevant, and so as not to drip feed, she ticks every adhd box at the top, but not diagnosed although we’re 4 years in now on the nhs list, and she’s got through the first few stages, and probably autism, but is able to mask so much, that that isn’t noticeable to the outside world.
daily menu for her would be steak, eggs, salmon, about 4 different fruits/veg, honey, all organic, and meat/fish/eggs only cooked in a special non Teflon pan with tallow. Drinks are filtered water only, and a hot drink with ginger, lemon.
I didn’t think this was too bad, expensive yes but I can afford it, but many of her peers are eating junk on the daily, and drinking alcohol, so compared to that, I feel like she’s ok. Yes, I know there’s lots in between that and balance would be key but I can’t force any near adult to eat, and certainly not DD for whom telling her what to do has the exact opposite effect.
anyway. On here last night, i discovered there’s a diagnosis for this - orthorexia, and it scared me. Oh, one last thing, it doesn’t stop her eating out socially, she’ll order steak and chips and I’ll eat her chips.

If we had all educated ourselves about the condition (there wasn’t actually much if any information available over twenty years ago tbf) and not just accepted it. She sort of groomed us into accepting it and thinking it was normal. Even now my parents facilitate it and turn a blind eye. I did and still do to a degree, but since I have small dc now, I see much more objectively that this is very strange behaviour I don’t want to normalise for them.
My position as a younger sibling is very different to yours as a mother. You need to get proper advice on how to support her (if there is a problem). Try organisations like BodyWhys or speak to your GP if you are concerned.

Honestly, it sounds very worrying to me, based on my experience of friends and children of friends with eating disorders. Not eating for a whole day because her preferred foods aren't available? That shows extreme control and anxiety about food. Only eating meat and eggs for weeks because her preferred fruit and veg aren't available? That screams 'safe foods' and massive restriction. Only drinking filtered water and using a specific pan? How does that fit in with daily life?

'Clean' eating doesn't restrict you to four fruit and vegetables. Loads of fruit and veg are available throughout the winter. What about fish other than salmon? What about meat other than steak? What about healthy wholegrains, seeds, nuts? What about potatoes, rice, pasta? Where is she getting her fibre and calcium from? Does she eat soy or enriched plant milks if no dairy? It's not a very healthy diet even if it is 'clean'.

Unfortunately in my recent experience (teenage children of friends/relations) the young people became seriously ill before they accessed treatment, or indeed before their parents really realised how ill they were, as people with eating disorders are very clever at hiding their eating habits. You are aware now, so though I don't know what help is available at this stage, you have a chance to try to prevent this escalating.

I think generally, day to day diet, isn’t worrying. But the control element and the not eating on planes etc is. You can always take bananas, nuts, fruit, veg on a plane, or make a packed lunch. There is no need to not eat: and it sounds like she’s quite proud of not doing..

Is bread "dirty" then? This idea of "clean eating" is disordered and manipulative because it posits any other food as dirty and therefore unhealthy.
Humans get our primary energy sources from carbs. We need carbs in a higher proportion than other foods to function, it's just how our bodies work.
Not eating a lasagne is very disordered
Not to mention the cholesterol levels in all of that red meat and tallow
Sounds like a social media invented to make you spend inordinate amounts of money on the most expensive foods
No dietician would recommend this
Very worrying op.

@arethereanyleftatall She has an eating disorder. If she mainly wanted to eat healthy that's one thing. But on longhaul flight she didn't eat anything because there was nothing that was "clean eating" is an indicator that this is taking the wrong direction and she's obsessive about it. This is a bad sign and might spiral and go into fullblown anorexia.

So you say she won’t eat lasagna BUT if I made one from scratch, all organic and the meat minced at home etc would she eat it? If I made a loaf of sourdough at home using organic flour etc would she eat that? If the answer is no I think there’s more of a problem. But if there’s previous mental health issues (which school refusal etc implies) then I would seek advice before diving in to panic stations. Do gently talk about balance & try making organic alternatives at home in the meantime. On the bright side she is currently healthy & happy so it sounds like you’ve got her through a tough time!

No, I wouldn’t show her the thread.
I think you need to talk to an expert before you bring it up with her. I’ve emailed back and forth with BodyWhys in the past and found them very good.

What are her plans? I’d be massively concerned if she’s heading off to uni. I can’t see her being able to cook in a dirty shared kitchen where things have dripped on her food in fridge or someone used her pan.
My dd had very restricted eating in her mid teens. I suspect arfid but not diagnosed. She eats a limited range of foods. It crossed into very concerning when she wouldn’t eat at all if it wasn’t what she would have. She fainted and knocked a hole in our wall with her head and we had a very difficult family holiday in NY.
Your airport scenario can easily spiral. What if you were delayed and no safe food for several days.
Red flags are not eating if no safe food and not being able to join in with normal activities. It also sounds like very social media/til tok influenced so I’d worry what she’s watching. Theres lots of healthy food that she’s excluding like nuts, other fish. I assume she’d pass if her friends go out for food or drink to a fast food place or you opted for a restaurant with no steak for a family birthday.
Mine has increased range of foods she eats and what is acceptable is usually pretty accessible/readily available. She’s a healthy weight now. At times of stress eg uni exams I know it increases. She will have things like itsu noodle pots so no need to cook in dirty kitchen or literally have same evening meal for a week - chicken breast (only from certain more expensive shops/higher welfare) and microwave sticky rice. I will buy her food or give money as I suspect she’d not eat if right food not available. She also looks at packaging and weighs some food. I basically watch like a hawk when I can and give money and ensure she has supplies of food she eats.

My niece has anorexia and is on path to autism diagnosis. The two often go hand in hand. She has been horribly ill and hospitalised. Mostly out of sight at uni but has had to drop out.
BEAT is a charity for eating disorders.

But it’s not inevitable.

Anytime someone eats ‘clean’ it implies other food is dirty or impure. Her thinking around food is quite disordered. There will be plenty of people on MN who find it fine, and the giveaway in their posts will be using words like ‘guzzle’ or implying the only choices are a frankly restricted expensive diet or licking the inside of the bins outside KFC. Enjoying a bowl of pasta isn’t ‘unclean’.

In reality eating is for both nutrition and pleasure, and having fixed beliefs about a particular kind of pan is not really related to either but is a red flag.

I'm another one who suffered from an eating disorder which started at about 16/17 (and I don't think I'll ever be 100% recovered) and I agree this is concerning behaviour. The level of control and rules around food make it an area she's likely to use and abuse when other things start to feel out of control or she's stressed in other ways. When I was having treatment I was told that lots of teen girls used to use vegetarianism / veganism in this way - not at all saying that this is true of all or even more than a tiny minority, but the point was that it's a way of separating out your own food/ diet from that of others in the family/ your social group and thus justifying certain choices.

Based on what OP has described, I would not take that chance in her position.

I think not used Teflon-coated pans is completely normal, or should be.

Why?

Her diet sounds great. Why does she need a balance? We don't need processed food or alcohol. Lots of people eat this way without it becoming an eating disorder.

That does sound quite restrictive and to be honest I would be a bit worried, especially if she's going to be going away to uni and you won't be able to keep an eye on her. Having a lot of rules around food is never a good sign - fine to eat a healthy diet, but not eating all day because there's nothing 'clean' is worrying.

My friend tends towards orthorexia, and it particularly flares up when she's stressed or anxious. She eats fairly normally but VERY healthily day-to-day, but when she's stressed she starts restricting even her usual diet (basically just lives on salmon and salad leaves), and gets very skinny and her periods stop.

Yes, in this case I think the risk is high.

Having rules- even fairly strict ones- about what you eat isn’t an eating disorder. Where it tips into an eating disorder is when it starts to negatively affect your physical or mental well being.

The things you’ve said that are most concerning are about her not eating whether preferred foods aren’t available, especially only eating meat and eggs for a month. That certainly isn’t good for her health and I’d be concerned.

I would suggest talking to her about all of this. Fine to mention your worries. You don’t have to tell her to completely change her diet (and I doubt should would if you did) but working out together ways in which she can eat healthily without fixating on good/bad or being overly restrictive, and planning ahead for when her options will be more limited.

You could also consider a dietician who works with people living with eating disorders.

I think at 17 this is concerning you’re right. And I have the full bingo card of eating disorders in my past - including a stint of orthorexia which I initially started as Keto. I loved the control and reward I got from keeping my carbs mega low - and losing weight. It got very addictive and eventually triggered a horrendous bulimia relapse. I’d watch for the restrictions to increase; other ‘tactics’ I’ve used include allergies / vegetarian / intermittent fasting as they all can be explained but are really just another way to restrict / control food in an unhealthy way - if you are that way inclined

Haha, thank you. I actually wasn't sure what it was but assumed it would an overpriced version of something else pretty basic. I can't see myself getting into that personally. But good luck to her I guess!

Just to answer a couple of questions…

she does eat other meats, different fish and different fruits. That was just an example. A different day might be oysters, chicken livers, and 4 different fruits and veg.

uni, she wants self catered, and ideally ultimately to live by herself

she doesn’t call it ‘clean eating’ sorry, those were my words. She calls it seasonal eating, or cavemen eating.

she is actually ‘better’ now than she was a few months ago, and is planning on going to her LD boyfriends for 3 weeks over summer, who don’t know anything about this, so it might be a good test there to see how that pans out

Does she not eat any beans and pulses?

I'm surprised that she isn't constipated as there isn't much fibre except for the veg.

I think it looks like she eats very well based on your examples. Do you believe she is obsessed with healthy eating?

If the things you've listed were unavailable would she eat anything else?

It isn’t about looks for her at all, it’s about how she feels. @arethereanyleftatall

You have no way to know if that's true or not. I used to say the same as you.
We thought my DD had orthorexia for a year until she was underweight and eating just carrots and tomatoes.
I looked on her phone and discovered weight tracking and calorie checking "how many calories in two blueberries" etc
It could only be about weight.

She never once vocalised any of the usual comments on her own weight that you associate with anorexia but it was all about how she felt.

Not saying your DD is going that way yet but it's something to be aware of.

Btw my DD is recovered now, vegan but able to eat junk food occasionally like the rest of us.

This is a bit more than “clean eating” which usually refers to a diet of whole foods cooked from scratch. I would describe your daughter’s diet as “ketovore.” The refusal to use Teflon, the beef tallow, and only drinking filtered water makes me think she is carnivore-adjacent. Has she come across the carnivore diet online and is moving in that direction? The carnivore groups tend to have a whole bunch of crazy ideas; they’re often anti-vaxxers and some of them claim sunscreen gives you skin cancer and you don’t need it if you only eat meat.

The issue of orthorexia is very concerning because she’s so inflexible about deviating from her diet. Would she really not drink tap water if that was all that was available? Did she have any food issues as a child? My AuDHD son had ARFID (Avoidant Restrictive Food Intake Disorder) and became quite controlling about food as a part of his conditions. It might have helped his mental and emotional health but it wasn’t good for his physical health and he ended up concerningly underweight.

I think it’s worth having a conversation with her about her diet. What’s going to happen when she leaves home and she can’t afford steak and salmon? Will she be happy eating minced beef and tinned sardines instead as a cheaper alternative? If she only eats four fruits and vegetables, which are they and why those four? Would she be open to moving towards more of a keto diet with a much bigger range of fruits and vegetables? Why does everything have to be cooked in tallow? Why not butter or olive oil?