AIBU to think women voting Reform are voting against themselves?

[Peaceandquietandacuppa]

AIBU to think that any woman voting for Reform is like a Turkey voting for Christmas?

the latest debacle - Rob Kenyon refusing to simply apologise for commenting on a disgusting post about Carol Vorderman’s areshole where he said “we’re all thinking the same thing”.

He was given the chance and chose instead to say “ I didn’t write the post” and “it was a long time ago”

Reform support him and say women are clutching their pearls at “mild tweets”. We all know from the many many threads on MN. That women face abuse every day and are most at danger from men they know. These men walk among us every day without us knowing. And if they feel so empowered to publically like a tweet saying they would love to lick a woman’s a*sehole or that women have abortions so they can “shag around” we all know that’s the tip of the iceberg in terms of their true thoughts. What about the Reform candidate who was convicted of kicking his partner while she lay on the ground outside a nightclub and Reform simply said “he’s done his time”

I attach a copy of what our dear friend Nigel wrote after the Sarah Everard case. Where was the energy he is giving for Henry Nowak? Oh wait because the perpetrator was a white man there was no opportunity to create tensions that suit his agenda.

IABU - women who vote Reform need to wake up, and fast

IANBU - I agree with Rob Kenyon and all the other things they have said against women (I’d love to hear why if you don’t mind)

I'm not trying to defend Farage and it's interesting that is the thought you jump to when this line of thinking is questioned.

What I'm saying is that in terms of scummy behaviour all parties have their culprits but some are clearly more in the criminal sphere of behaviour that potentially carry very heavy jail sentences.

So no party can claim to really be on the side of women. That's the point I'm making. No party has any moral high ground. So trying to use that as a stick to beat one party more than another is disingenuous and wrong.

I think women are able to make up their own minds on which party has an agenda that suits their own political viewpoint.

This rhetoric that right is bad and left is good does nothing but push people towards being disenfranchised.

Honestly I think pretending is worse. And it's not over, not even slightly.

No it’s not over. Although women have done well.

It is the same argument with the Equality Act. The educated Reform voters I have met say they do not think they need an “Act” that enforces certain behaviour on people that they believe leads to absurd outcomes. They believe the Church of England will never go back on eg gay marriage. Having a law and a body enforcing it and making it something everyone has to consider is a different thing, in their opinion. They think you do not need a law to enact common sense daily custom. They seem to think it causes division unnecessarily. Now obviously a lot of people are saying the opposite that it will give them the power to take rights away.

Labour frustrates me because they have some strong women like Mahmood and Liz Kendall who are excellent and could turn things around but they constantly put forward dudes. I do not think Rachel Reeves was the right person, for example. You needed someone tougher to manage the economy and the backbenchers too. You just cannot please everyone if you are a strong leader. Labour are their own worst enemy!

I used to be a leftie but am now a free speech Conservative. Not exclusively but primarily because of this issue.
I will not vote for a political party which tells me I am a bigot for understanding sex based reality and for not wanting to harm and medicalise confused children.
Every single mainstream party (except the Tories) called voters who disagreed, bigots and chanted TWAW, no debate.
Because the Conservatives allowed their MPs to have different views on this issue (although Theresa May was captured by Stonewall), when they looked into self id (Johnson/Truss), they realised it wasn't quite so straightforward after all. They started to row back...too slowly but nevertheless.
Free speech is what allowed this fightback by women and let's face it, thank goodness for JK Rowling's many interventions when all the politicans apart from a few, were too cowardly to speak out.
I will never forgive the left and centre parties for calling me a bigot. They forgot that women are 50 per cent of voters at least.

Also actions speak much louder than words or even laws. I am yet to be convinced that the Labour Party isn’t misogynistic and antisemitic. Waffling about rights means nothing to me. They need to put a strong very well educated woman in charge to convince me otherwise. They have still failed to do that to date.

The rhetoric can be challenged though. If someone wants to explain why Reform are a better option for women than Labour, then I'm listening.
You're right, no party is 100% on women's side. Such is the nature of the patriarchal society. So women need to consider the policies of each and what that's likely to look like for our day to day lives and choose the best option.
I'd like someone to explain which Labour policies they believe make the lives of women worse, and which of Reforms would make them better.

@5128gap Labour waffle endlessly but their actions are what counts and what people see. Many people do not believe their waffle one bit.
Eg appointing Mandelson was a huge mistake. Having no strong female PM ever. Putting Angela Rayner with zero academic qualifications as deputy so she cannot threaten Starmer and is like a “nod” to the working classes supposedly - some people find that quite offensive really. They have much better women in their party. Why do that.
Nigel Farage has been around for ever. People seem to simply think he cannot do worse than the rest of them and despite Brexit, it seems people have some innate trust in him over and above the rest. And most of his policies aren’t really that bad, some of it is common sense.
It is better we start being honest now. Because this is actually something that could happen and I do not want a Reform Government. I think they would be inexperienced and really bad.

I'm not trying to defend Farage and it's interesting that is the thought you jump to when this line of thinking is questioned.

You jumped to it only being Labour supporting women who are disgusted by Kenyon’s misogyny.

Yes there is more to do, but getting rid of the legislation which got things this far is madness. It undos pretty much everything. I have more respect for Badenochs stance although I disagree with her in other areas.

I guess we should also ask how many people have become single issue voters simply because Labour or Tory pissed them off so much about certain things.

Like the farmers, or private school VAT, or trans ideology. I mean there must be thousands of people who will never vote for certain parties again because of such issues.

Personally, I would never vote Reform because of Brexit. However, if it was a choice between a Labour/full on Green coalition versus a Con/Lib Dem/Reform coalition I would vote the second one. Because as far as I am concerned, the current Green ideology is worse than Reform.

Being honest about what? And doing what as a result of our honesty? Because I don't want a Reform government any more than you do, so what specifically do you think should be done and by who to avoid it?
I'm happy to be honest and say that I don't think keir Starmer has shown good leadership skills in his selection of his team.
I'm happy to be honest and say that Labour have not done a good job in explaining their direction and what has been achieved in a way that has been accessible.
I think there are lessons for Labour in the value of performative 'listening' and meeting people where they are they could take from Reform.
But realistically, if the majority of the electorate want a hard right response to the social problems they see (and we have no reason to believe they do. Only 11% voted Reform in the council elections, the other 89% of us either voted against Reform or stayed silent), then Labour can't give them that and remain true to its values.

@5128gap - well this ridiculous leadership challenge that may be looming, hardly anyone in the country is up for that! That will be Labour members putting in another middle aged idenitkit man for what! I find that quite offensive. Stop wasting time and sort out the mess. People have zero faith in politicians because they get nothing done and we need the hard decisions made. And some people think that at least Nigel Farage got Brexit done somehow. That is some action and they see that as strong. I obviously do not. But what I think the country does need is strong direction and leadership. I think a lot of people feel unsafe and threatened by both cost of living, the changes in tech and all the wars around. So start with strong leadership and make people feel safe.

Apparently only 1.9% of the UK electorate are single issue voters. The rest consider at least 6 issues when making their decision. The cost of living, the economy, the NHS and immigration are the key considerations.

Start funding the military and the intelligence services and hire some of the graduates and build drones etc. Ditch the DEI initiatives. Re-employ what you do have to make people feel safe. Really manage data sharing etc well. We need AI on data, but it needs to be safe.

@5128gap - “immigration” means so many different things though. As far as I am concerned, we need skilled young immigrants and have always benefitted from them. We do not want illegal criminal immigrants and at this point, I think we should admit that we just send them back and then fight it out in court with the ECHR. And put in caveats in the human rights act so we can do that. That is what most of the country seem to want and Starmer with his knowledge in human rights can make that happen.

Also the so called Boris Wave. Yes there were some immigrants who made it through who do not contribute long term and won’t ever, but there are also plenty of skilled ones paying a lot of tax. And telling eg highly qualified people from some countries that they won’t get rights here for a long time, is quite absurd and they and their families economically benefit us, far more than a lot of Reform voters. So whatever, introduced a test to prolong visas depending on how much tax paid, level of eduction etc. We do need the right people to stay.

If we need strong direction and leadership and you don't think Starmer is offering that, then it makes sense to change him, surely? One of the most cited issues with Labour is people's dislike and mistrust of Starmer, rightly or wrongly.
So Labour are 'listening to the people' and the most popular politician in the UK, with a proven track record of achievements that are widely considered positive, is, all being well, about to offer himself for the role. Yet this is wrong also?
I think there is a lot of public support for a change of PM. Opinions just differ on whether this should be swapping out Starmer for Burnham or calling a GE and letting Farage have a chance. And those are the only two possible outcomes given the low support for the other parties.

Yes, in my mind, Badenoch’s Conservatives/Reform are the least worst option.

Imo Labour/Green/Independent’ (the so called Gaza/Islamist representing MPs) are extremely divisive and are actively harming Britain.

Lib Dem’s just seem to be a bit pointless and their leader is very anti women.

Yes, Labour happy for taxpayers to pay the £5million bill for their party politics shenanigans. Starmer is worse than useless, Burnham would be awful.

“So Labour are 'listening to the people' and the most popular politician in the UK, with a proven track record of achievements that are widely considered positive, is, all being well, about to offer himself for the role. Yet this is wrong also?”

@5128gap - the most “popular politician”? Are you having a laugh.
Most people had barely heard of him a few months ago.

The people in Makerfield - you know, the ones whose opinions actually count right now - know perfectly well who he is. He’s won every Manchester mayoral election with a landslide. And those of us old enough to remember politics before 2010 know who he is too.

“The people in Makerfield - you know, the ones whose opinions actually count right now - know perfectly well who he is. He’s won every Manchester mayoral election with a landslide. And those of us old enough to remember politics before 2010 know who he is too.”

You would still be thrusting in a nobody into a party that already only represents 25% of the population, because that is how our electoral system, works. And then watch the fallout. There is no chance that Andy Burnham can turn things around quickly for Labour. He has no magic wand, he is hardly any different from Starmer. It is complete wishful thinking in the echo chamber that is a small part of the Labour Party.

And the financial markets do not like Andy Burnham. Honestly, my mind is made up. Dreadful proposition to put him in at this point.

Do you really want a Liz Truss moment @blossomtoes. What next? We get the IMF in to sort out the mess.

Have any of you actually considered what you are doing in your echo chamber?