AIBU to think women voting Reform are voting against themselves?

[Peaceandquietandacuppa]

AIBU to think that any woman voting for Reform is like a Turkey voting for Christmas?

the latest debacle - Rob Kenyon refusing to simply apologise for commenting on a disgusting post about Carol Vorderman’s areshole where he said “we’re all thinking the same thing”.

He was given the chance and chose instead to say “ I didn’t write the post” and “it was a long time ago”

Reform support him and say women are clutching their pearls at “mild tweets”. We all know from the many many threads on MN. That women face abuse every day and are most at danger from men they know. These men walk among us every day without us knowing. And if they feel so empowered to publically like a tweet saying they would love to lick a woman’s a*sehole or that women have abortions so they can “shag around” we all know that’s the tip of the iceberg in terms of their true thoughts. What about the Reform candidate who was convicted of kicking his partner while she lay on the ground outside a nightclub and Reform simply said “he’s done his time”

I attach a copy of what our dear friend Nigel wrote after the Sarah Everard case. Where was the energy he is giving for Henry Nowak? Oh wait because the perpetrator was a white man there was no opportunity to create tensions that suit his agenda.

IABU - women who vote Reform need to wake up, and fast

IANBU - I agree with Rob Kenyon and all the other things they have said against women (I’d love to hear why if you don’t mind)

I have not heard anyone, anywhere north of the M25, who gives a shit about Reform's stance on transwomen. Transgender issues are a non existent topic regarding who they will vote for. The economy and immigration are the main issues for most voters.

That’s the thing - the town and the area it’s in are absolutely not alright, Jack.

But it’s quite obvious when you look at the facts that the reason it’s not alright isn’t because of immigration, because the area essentially doesn’t have any.

We didn’t go Reform in the last GE, but I think it will in the next, because people (wrongly) buy into being told that the reason for their problems is immigration, despite the facts and numbers saying something very different.

They need a scapegoat, and Farage gives them one.

Your post needs editing because you asked people to choose the wrong IABU/IANBU.

You're obviously right. I have spoken to many people who vote Reform and I understand what's happening. It's always baffling to me when these people, who are capable of logical reasoning, tell me they're voting against their interests.

We're still emotional beings. And it's so easy to condition and trick the human mind.

Reform focus heavily on trigger points. So, racism, the country changing how it looks and feels due to immigration, the divide being caused between men and women due to social media, so targeting men who are (rightly so) sick of being attacked. But who is really behind it?

You're being convinced you have an enemy but it's a distraction.

What Reform don't do is explain how they will reform education, social care, give everyone access to top paying jobs (look into why you will never be promoted to the senior management of a large company after entering it at entry level, without connections). The list goes on.

Ask a Reform candidate how they intend to ensure children leave school with actual life skills and skills relevant to the job market. Have they got a revised curriculum they're working on? How do they plan to keep the best teachers in schools?

Ask them why dismantling the infrastructure that protects us from takeover by dictators and religious fanatics is a good idea.

And ask what the plan is to either cope without immigrants / minorities (so underpaying the white people left, presumably?) or how they plan to properly integrate everyone - is there a plan?

Ask their voters specifics about why it benefits them to have no safety net in a country where large business owners are systematically reducing jobs and benefits.

They need to look past their emotions.

Women in particular need to talk to older women who remember the 90s and any other decade before that. You think some religions treat women poorly? Ahahha educate yourself about how we treated women in this country not that long ago!

The only difference between 'us and them' is that we allow ourselves to become more enlightened over time and we act on change when we need it. That's something to be hugely proud of. Staying stagnant is death and some cultures do that more than others, this is true. But Reform is part of that stagnant mindset and we need to eliminate it just as much as some ideas in other cultures that they complain about - ironic.

I think there's a big push from the right to bring trans issues front and centre because they act as a gateway to enable them to access spaces where they would have traditionally been given short shrift.
I mean, in what world could feminists possibly be able to defend the likes of Trump and Kenyon? But say the magic words "At least he knows what a woman is" and out comes the welcome mat and the misogyny gets swept under the carpet because somehow knowing what a woman is has become conflated with knowing what a woman is AND using that knowledge in a way that benefits women.
We are supposed to believe these right wing regressive misogynists are advocating against GI because they care about our rights, rather than simply holding the default position on sex and gender of any traditionalist, and indeed the vast majority of the world.
Out in the real world, I'm inclined to agree it will have had minimal influence on women's choice to vote Reform. On QT the women of Makerfield didn't even bother to raise a question about it.

It’s not ‘trans issues’ it’s women’s rights. Most GC will frame it as the latter.

But no I doubt it’s motivating many voters who have shifted to Reform.

Or that it’s solely it. But more a sense of how much ideology is shaping laws that don’t work.

Well the current government isn’t doing a good job of keeping women safe or POC. Farage might be awful but can he be any worse when it comes to the safety of women or young girls. I don’t think any of them care particularly for female second class citizens.

Women's rights is a very big issue. In this conversation I and the PP were referring to a specific element of Women's rights, the trans issue. So the use of the term is appropriate so it's clear what is being referred to. If I had said trans 'rights' then you may have had a point.

No it’s still about women’s rights. FWS for example fought for women not for men. Women on here speak up for their own sex class.

It’s about a very small part of women’s rights. Trans issue is the appropriate term for this particular sub section of women’s rights.

Men and TRAs rely on the arguments from below.

Fortunately women have been stronger and effected change against those who try to stop it.

Stop what?

Ok well my reading of Reform is they are going to remove all benefits in the widest possible way from all non British citizens and may even try to remove indefinite leave to remain from anyone even old and therefore a drain on society.
So I find that offensive, but I can see why someone who is British and taking from the system thinks that may help them as the pot available to them will be bigger.
So all those people who came here and can’t pass the citizenship test even won’t get anything from the State.

The original comment that sparked the conversation was speculating that women were turning to Reform because of their approach to the trans issue.
Had the poster said, do we think women are turning to Reform because of their approach to women's rights, more than a few of us would have either gone "what, now..??" Or assumed she was being sarcastic.
She was asking if women are turning to Refirm because of their approach to the trans issue. That is what we were discussing.

No its about all of women's rights.
When you call men women or accept that some men can be women you strip the word woman of all meaning and if you have no words for women that exclude all men then you can't protect womens rights.
Under the banner of "trans rights" we have seen a wholesale attack on all of our rights, indecent exposure and voyeurism have basically been decrimilised with men getting not only a walk but given access to womens changing facilities by claiming that they are women and ridiculously light sentences when they are prosecuted.
We have medical textbooks for midwives teaching them how to catheterise men (with a prostate) before labour!( Edinburgh uni gave us that one).
Nurses claiming that they dont know the difference between mens normal blood test results and womens normal blood test results (Peggie vs nhs fife).
Male drs admitting that they would treat a female patient who has requested female only care because he "is female" (again the Peggie trial).
Medical messaging that talks about cervical cancer, womb cancer, ovarian cancer, endometriosis and menopause without mentioning the word woman once.
We have had period advice for girls that calls them bleeders.
Maternity policies that dont mention mothers only birthing persons/parents
We've seen a convicted pedophile allowed to stay in a Woman's Aid shelter because he identifies as a woman.
Male rapists and murders held in women's prisons (they still are in Scotland)
Men taking womens roles on boards and womens charities (Edinburgh rape crisis)

These are just some of the harms and ways that women are continuing to be harmed by the "trans issue" as you put it, this is not a small part of women's rights issues its the biggest attack on women that we've seen in my lifetime and I can remember needing my father's signature to open a bank account.
Edited for typo

Precisely.

Thanks for this, yes. Fortunately women have been stronger on this and created change. FWS for example.

I voted the wrong way. Of course women should not vote for a party that wants to reduce and remove women’s rights

So that's Labour and Lib Dems out of the picture then

Yes exactly, you MUST vote Labour or Green or whatever lefty bunch of snowflakes are the most outraged

I don’t think Reform is removing the rights of any British women though are they. They are proposing to remove rights of non British women. Including lots of vulnerable non British women who may have served the country as nurses. So the sword will fall the hardest on women who are not British including elderly non British women or single non British women.
So as a British woman I still find that offensive. And as a British woman I ask who is going to do the care and nursing jobs and any jobs that lots of non British women have been doing? Clearly then by implication they are expecting British women to have to do those jobs whether they want to or not.

You think immigration is a greater issue than the privatisation of the NHS, increased austerity, the destruction of the welfare state, the rolling back of worker and renter rights, a return to a feudal system of land ownership, leaving the ECHR so that we become an international pariah as most international treaties are predicated on being a signatory of the ECHR is such as cross border tax information flows, interpol and Europol data as well as public health and demographic data used for research and planning. This will make it harder to travel, instigate independent tax policies and international commerce. But racism trumps all other considerations for you right? See how Brexit has worked out for the UK,

obviously when Reform fails, they will blame immigrants, the civil service and the judiciary.

And if there are fewer care workers (which there will be) who is going to be providing the care free of charge and whose rights to work for a living wage are going to be eroded? Yep, that will be all of us British women too.

I don’t believe they will be able to erode abortion rights in this country though or scrap the NHS free at the point of use. Unless someone is saying that because nobody will do the Nursing jobs at current wages we will end up with everyone having to pay for an NHS.

Reform, not letting petty spite get in the way of respecting the legacies of female historical figures.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7783/

Immigration and the NHS are linked. 21% of NHS staff are foreign nationals. But in London 32% are.
I mean who in their right mind is going to go and work in a different country with no rights and a crap wage and in rubbish working conditions?

Leaving the ECHR is also so that they can implement a two tier society of rights/welfare state for British citizenship versus a different regime for all those who aren’t British. And the way it is being sold is to preserve the Welfare State for Birtish people, not the other way around. The concept is that the welfare state is what attracts a lot of people to come here who are not net contributors.