To be honest in my reference letter?

[IamAporcupine]

I have been asked to provide a reference letter for an employee who recently left my team. She has already been offered a new job in a completely different field. This is fortunate as her performance in her previous role was very poor; we lost time and money thanks to her lack of skills.

The form has a "would you re-employ this person?" I want to be honest and just say "No". I can explain that I believe this field of work was not for her, and that she will very likely perform well in her new job.

AIBU?

HR allowing managers to write references does not mean the company will accept the risk if OP makes any negative or defamatory statements about the employee. She needs confirmation that the company is happy with her writing anything negative in writing if she wants to do it.

OP can write a negative opinion if she wants - but at a minimum she needs it signed off by the company as they're committing to a large money/legal risk in her doing so

Very obviously nobody's going to write that in a policy, but they might just take the view that it's fine to tell the truth providing it can be backed up

Not every employer avoids this "just in case" someone feels like making an issue of it, and not every reference-seeker whines that folk are being spiteful and ruining their career ... which is just as well

Typo

I think we will have to agree to disagree!

You should not be ticking yes. Just leave it blank.

I have absolutely no idea where you get this from.

You’re missing the point.

If their policy is that managers write their own references, and there is no requirement in the policy to get anything agreed or signed off by HR, even contentious references, then the Company have taken on the risk by default.

They are telling the OP it’s fine for her to do the reference as she feels fit.

Nothing to do with "being on a power trip" - it’s just a question of honesty and integrity. I just don’t understand the people saying reference-givers should lie and pretend they would re-employ someone when in fact they wouldn't touch them with a bargepole. Someone can have received a lot of support and advice and still be poor at their job without, at the time of the reference being requested, being on an official support plan (though they may have been on one in the past, met their targets just enough to be taken off it, and then relapsed into their old ways).

This happens a lot in teaching because it is very, very difficult to get rid of a poor teacher. The teaching unions are very powerful (which I’m not saying is necessarily a bad thing - some schools/headteachers can be awful employers.) Poor teachers move from school to school, leaving each one just before they are pushed, because some headteachers are just glad to get rid of them however they can.

Would you be happy for your child to have a new class teacher who turns out to be poor because the HT was never told about the reservations of the school they just left (to avoid being put on an official support plan)?

You seem to have a really high opinion of employers backing their employees. Yes, that would be nice. In the real world, there is no way an employer will back their employee giving a negative/defamatory reference if they get sued.

You also can't assume that because they've allowed individuals to give references, the company will accept the fall out if OP makes any negative or defamatory statements about the employee. OP will definitely be blamed if it costs her employer a lot of money (and the referee can sue for significant loss of income if she loses a job because of that reference)

This is incorrect. You are giving very dangerous advice from a position that I know you are not an expert in, please don't.

OP - refer to your D&O policy and ring the EPL number provided or ring ACAS and get their advice in writing.

Don't listen to anyone on here saying you personally, and/or as a company representative, will not be subject to liability in the event you get this wrong.

I don't know why you're so stubborn on this point. You must have really disliked this person but you are making your future very unstable if you don't safeguard your actions as recommended. Best of luck.

https://www.acas.org.uk/providing-a-job-reference/what-employers-can-say-in-a-reference

They don’t have a choice. In a tribunal or civil case they wlll be the defendant. They can’t just pull out and tell the defendant to persue OP instead. What you’re saying doesn’t make sense

plus, as I said, they have accepted the risk. Maybe they don’t care. I have worked for plenty of employers who wouldn’t, including a university where the VC fired difficult people at will, accepting the risk of tribunal in the process.

this is an institution that has decided its managers, not HR who provide references. They likely have a very different way of operating to what you’re used to

Their process can't opt out of employment law regardless of how it's structured internally. Again, you are giving very bad advice. I appreciate it's coming from a place you believe to be correct, but it is not.

What advice? Are you mixing me up with someone else? I’m not giving any advice

there is no employment law that says HR have to write or approve references, as you know.

Maybe you were the wrong employer for this person? Just put yes.

You are telling OP that management is liable for OP actions, as her employer having trusted her to this position with appropriate authority etc and, as such, her actions have been signed off as compliant and approved and exempts her from being personally liable for her actions.

This is false.

OP - I am willing to dox myself to talk to you off the record as I am a professional in this area, if you are interested.

Otherwise, just please consider my advice above as it is in your best interest. Refer to EPL cover under D&O and/or ACAS.

I haven’t said that at all.

I have said the company have accepted the risk that OP will write a bad reference by having a policy that entirely delegates this to her judgement.

that is true.

I wouldn’t personally. It’s sabotaging someone for no real purpose

Ok, well if she makes the wrong judgement, as she's about to do, then she can be sued personally.

There is no exemption or protection from an employer for this as it falls under Employment Practices Liability.

She can be sued personally for "failure to hire" and whatever else the person believes the reason was behind the bad reference. It will all come out in the wash.

Well I’d hope, considering so many posters including myself have told Op what an arsehole she would be to give a bad reference, she’s not about to do that at all.

Agree. It’s so unnecessary to cause her issues especially if she is better suited to the new job

Most companies give the bare minimum, and only confirm employed from and to dates. If you feel uncomfortable filling in the form, this is all you need to confirm for the ex- employee.

Absolutely

And genuinely I think this is necessary. Who wants a total incompetent landing up with them.

Really unnecessarily aggressive, and so much projection.

OP has stated in her OP:

I can explain that I believe this field of work was not for her, and that she will very likely perform well in her new job.

But if she ticks "no", there's every chance that the new employer will retract their offer. Many employers would not touch an employee with a poor reference, would rescind the offer and offer the role to the second-choice candidate. By this logic, as the new role is in a different field, she would be saying "no" to this question on all reference requests, potentially blocking this woman from finding future employment. This seems unnecessarily vindictive to me and as another poster remarked, almost as though the OP is on a power trip.

You are right, I certainly am projecting. At the risk of inevitable eye-rolls about mentioning neurodiversity, many of the mistakes OP's employee made sound exactly like examples of workplace mistakes I made before I started ADHD medication and my life drastically improved. Leaving things switched on, poor organisation, not ordering things on time and struggling with mundane tasks are classic indicators of executive dysfunction.

I remember being in my early 20's and feeling so much shame because I didn't understand why I struggled to pick up basic tasks that everybody else seemed to manage fine, even though I had an excellent degree. The negative feedback from managers in my formative years significantly impacted my mental health and I suffer from imposter syndrome even now in my senior role.

This may not be the case with OP's employee, but I do feel that she just needs to let it go and just allow this woman to move on with her life. Seeking vengeance for some late orders and lost company money will not make OP feel better in the long run.