To ask how many times you have seen anyone wearing a niqab (full face veil revealing eyes) or burqa (full face veil with mesh cover for eyes)?

[Jane379]

I've seen recent talk on UK Reddit about banning them, and I think we should, for several reasons, but I also think in some ways banning is easy but actually integrating people leading a very conservative Muslim lifestyle is much harder, and should be the main discussion.
European countries that have banned found not many women wore them. What about here? Some estimates say 1%-2% of Muslim women, but we don't really know.

I live in S London in an area with quite a few Muslims and have only seen about 10 niqab wearers in my life. Most in more central areas. I've never seen anyone wearing a burqa.

How typical is this?

I’d imagine anywhere without men, they will lift it. I have a muslim colleague who doesn’t wear her headscarf when it’s just women on the call.

Have a word with Nige. I'm pretty sure he'll be happy to impose a ban if Reform ever gain power. And we shall have the government, and the society, that we deserve.

I used to see a couple of women wearing burkas fairly regularly while living in Perth Australia about 15 odd years ago. I was in a very multicultural area. I am now in a regional WA town and its not common although there are plenty of women who wear hijabs.

It felt kind of sad because it is hard to interact with people when you can't see their face. I was a young mum and a bit lonely so would regularly chat to other mums at local shops or parks but when someone's face is covered you don't see a smile or any other cues to let you know if conversation is wanted. I felt like it must be very isolating.

Health, but it's my right to wear it for any reason I choose.

This isn’t true. The Quran only calls for “modest” clothing for both men and women, this literally means don’t walk around in hot pants and no shirt. For women it tends to be a case of wearing looser fitting clothing.

Also on the note of hijabs being “mandated” from puberty, the hijab is never mandated hence seeing plenty of Muslim women without them. It’s a choice. Some young girls choose to wear them because they want to copy mum or their sister.

As I said earlier in the thread, I was surprised to see young girls in a niqab last time I returned to Bradford where I grew up. I’ve never seen that before nor since.

If they were banned I would worry that some of these women would remain indoors and become isolated from society. I am thinking that some may feel pressure from husbands and families to wear them.

This is the sort of thing that has be researched and considered before passing laws. You and I can't realistically assess the balance of interests.

Should our legal system pander to the illegal actions of abusive men? Probably not.

What groups may benefit from a ban, and how? I can think of deaf people who lip-read. There will be other considerations that I haven't thought of, and then the relative balance has to be assessed.

I live near High Wycombe and many women wear them. It's designed to be a symbol of oppression, there is no way women wearing them can participate in society - they must remain hidden and reliant on men. Boys then see their mother's wearing them and think it's normal.
You can't even eat properly wearing one.

I absolutely hate what they stand for and think they should have no place in our society.

Ahh thank you for reminding me the name. Yeah I'm also near a Jewish area so see a lot of kippahs too.

It's very isolating isn't it? I was so relieved when face masks came off, I could read lips and expressions again. I had to guard my own a bit more though😶. As for the discomfort of having face covered during activity or hot weather...airgasm anyone?

I do also agree with pp about the misogyny of face covering. It inhibits integration into wider society. But that seems to be the idea.

I see them all over - Oxford Street I assume it’s Arab tourists.

Many women opt to wear them and are not forced, nor feel oppressed. It makes them feel safer and more secure, away from the male gaze which I think most women can appreciate to be honest.

They also can and do eat perfectly fine, usually in a female only space or alone.

1 or 2 a week in Bristol.
What is worse, prepubescent girls wearing a hijab-type head covering as part of school uniform.
While their husbands, father, brothers all wear western clothing.
I would ban it.

What is worse? All the major faiths oppress women in their extreme manifestations. The face coverings are no worse than raising women to accept male headship in fundamentalist Christianity, no worse than ultra orthodox Judaism refusing females divorce. The problem is men wielding faith as a tool of oppression. The focus on Islam is a convenient distraction.

South Wales. Niqab, all the time. Burka, rarely. I don't agree with banning what people wear except for security and public decency reasons (don't ask me how to define that). But, I don't agree with women fully covering up for religious reasons, if men are not also required to do so.

Having said all that, it's not my life or my religion (don't have one) so aside from the public decency and security side of things, I don't feel have a right to decide for someone else.

many times felt like i could have been handing the kids over to anyone

That’s because you could well have been handing the kids over to anyone!

I sympathise with women in Islamist countries where they are treated as subhumans, and not allowed to show their face in public.

But in a free country, no one should cover their face except for medical reasons. It’s unfriendly, it enables fraud (as above), it disadvantages anyone with hearing or communication difficulties, and it reinforces the toxic myth that women have to hide their faces because men can’t control themselves. That’s medieval bullshit that we do not need.

I don’t recall the exact number but it would be higher than 10.
It makes me feel uncomfortable although it is not my body or face, would it help the women by banning them? Is it their choice? If the answer was yes then I would 💯 support the ban, alongside all face coverings unless required for cyclists or workers.

The Hijab is totally different. I think they’re really elegant. They are copying their mother and want to look grown up, no different to 10 year olds doing their hair and dressing like their mother.
I just saw my neighbour leaving for school in a beautiful hijab cream with small stones, she’s 10. Some 10 year old girls in gym gear or grown up clothing? She was delighted in her fancy hijab.

I live in a rural village in Ireland and there is one lady I meet regularly who wears a niqab, the only one in the village.
We say hi as we pass but I feel the covering is a barrier to any further interaction. I cant see her face, therefore cant read her facial expressions and dont know if she would like to engage further.

Surely it is very oppressive and restrictive, how can they eat or drink in public, take part in sports, drive safely? I have seen her wear it on hot summer days, it must be roasting underneath it.

However for me it is the barrier it poses to social integration because you cant see their expressions.

I am surprised people see so many niqabs outside certain areas in the UK. I live in South London and work centrally and see a fair few women (including friends and colleagues) who wear hijabs. But I don't regularly see a lot of women wearing niqabs (to be clear the niqab is a head and face covering where only the eyes are visible.)

My general view on this stuff is men, including those in government, should not be telling women what to wear.

Increasingly often (North England)
I grew up in an area with loads of Muslims and never, ever saw a woman in a hijab, let alone a full Niquab. Older women ( grandmas) wore a headscarf over head and shoulders , often quite pretty ones.
Now, most girls are in hijab ( which often seems to be a fashion statement more than a modesty thing because they wear it with fake eyelashes)and I see Niquab probably a couple of times a week. I increasingly see burkinis at the swimming pool too.
It’s not a neutral item of clothing it’s a political statement and I don’t think we should normalise it in the uk. You cant participate in life with your face covered.
I worry though that if Niquab was banned those women would be forced to stay inside all the time.

Perhaps you ought to listen to the complaints about immigration then.

I think it is very high time for the Muslim community and its leaders to answer this question: what do you put first, the civil laws and traditions of the UK, the state that has welcomed you, or the laws and traditions of your religion and native community?

As for the Hadiths, over time, many other religions decided to step back on certain practices or to put in the background some sacred texts that were not fitting their views anymore. Christian religion purged itself of a lot of not very nice stuff to become the tolerant, egalitarian open-minded faith it is today, it can be done.

Islam still cannot accept the predominance of the state over faith or religious freedom. This is why multiculturalism and integration stop working when Islam is involved.

Your first para assumes that Muslims can't be British. There's a word for that.

It's completely different and you know it, and no amount of the sycophantic "its so beautiful" takes away from the reality which is that it is a tool of oppression