To ask how many times you have seen anyone wearing a niqab (full face veil revealing eyes) or burqa (full face veil with mesh cover for eyes)?

[Jane379]

I've seen recent talk on UK Reddit about banning them, and I think we should, for several reasons, but I also think in some ways banning is easy but actually integrating people leading a very conservative Muslim lifestyle is much harder, and should be the main discussion.
European countries that have banned found not many women wore them. What about here? Some estimates say 1%-2% of Muslim women, but we don't really know.

I live in S London in an area with quite a few Muslims and have only seen about 10 niqab wearers in my life. Most in more central areas. I've never seen anyone wearing a burqa.

How typical is this?

First purpose built mosque in the UK dates back to 1889. We get it, you hate and fear Islam. Perhaps you should get a job in the NHS; you would get to know many Muslims and perhaps realise they are not a homogeneous mass of identical people.

As for 'British values', is there any agreement on what those are?

This is interesting re men, I'll need to check.

Unfortunately I think the justification for niqabs comes from the Hadith not the Quran... Quran is believed by some to mandate covering hair but the verse is a bit vague and doesn't say it directly.

Something has occurred to me : Sikh men don't have to wear motorbike helmets, they have a religious exemption. If we tried to ban niqabs & burqas, could women who wear them argue similar?

My area was mostly Sikh immigration in the midC20th and I noticed that the older ladies wore saris & salwar kameez daily but the next generations mostly wore 'western' clothes unless there was some occasion to dress up, same with all other ex-South Asian groups. None of my Muslim friends wore hijab.
It's become noticeably more conservative in Muslim communities now and if you track the restrictions on women in places like Iran & Afghanistan in the same time frame, that change is concerning.
Incidentally, it was always the scuttlebutt that ( in many cultures) boys were treated differently ( better) to girls, I would hate to think we are regressing. I hear from some of my teacher friends that disrespect for women in authority is a concern.

Btw burkinis look like a dangerous liability if you actually try to swim in them.

Sorry to blow your tiny mind again, but I live with one 😆

My DP is Turkish. Turkey is the only Muslim country who went through secularisation (= the law of the state, human rights, sex equality and personal emancipation supersede religion).

Despite being a Muslim country, you won't see niqabs in Turkey. Most people there live their religion like we live ours, like a faith, a personal spirituality, not a political or social system that aspires to domination.

But since Erdogan came to power and the influx of refugees from Syria and Afghanistan, there's more pressure coming from the religious side again. He chose to move to the UK for his teenage daughter because he didn't want for her to be pressured into dressing modestly, religious conservatism etc. He wants for her to be free to live as she pleases.

So when he sees all these Western people, mostly women, ignorant of their own history, oblivious to their privilege, and ignorant of Islam, ready to sell women's and his daughter's freedom because they think that Islam is the same as Wahhabism (the very conservative, extremist, bellicose Saudi sect that only emerged in the late 19th century and has propagated all over the Muslim world because of oil money), he thinks you're dangerous idiots.

The moment you have more than insults, factoids hastily googled, or some true skin in the game, please, do come and share.

Interesting re your husband. Horrible he felt he had to move but I can fully understand why.

the very conservative, extremist, bellicose Saudi sect that only emerged in the late 19th century and has propagated all over the Muslim world because of oil money)

• this is crucial. I've been reading up on the House of Saud & their pact with the Wahhabis recently & it's clearly caused so many problems.

I don't think women here wearing niqabs necessarily want to dominate anyone else but it's clearly a negative practice.

I grew up in an Arab country and one of my earliest memories of my adopted home town of Abu Dhabi (I turned 5 immediately on arrival in the country) was that the local women always removed their face coverings in the presence of young children. This was over 50 years ago.

We drove overland to the UAE and my late mother kept a journal of the trip which I have just transcribed and translated into Arabic. My mother's relief at crossing from eastern Turkey into pre-revolutionary Iran is palpable but when we get to Tehran, there are clues that she has no idea what's coming when we crossed the Persian Gulf - she is clearly surprised to see a few veiled women in Tehran, whereas she wouldn't have seen the veil in Turkey.

I agree, but I intensely dislike the hypocrisy that calls out extremist Islam and has nothing at all to say about extreme Orthodox Judaism and the kind of Christianity that is currently so powerful in the US and Russia. All religions have their extremes.

And none of that takes away from the issue that you can't distinguish women who cover up to an extreme degree because of their own intrinsic beliefs and those who are coerced into it. Personally as a fairly hardcore atheist I don't get that kind of intense expression of faith, but I'm opposed to stifling anyone's freedom of religion.

I also live in the Midlands and have hijabi colleagues. It'd be a backward step to outright ban a dress choice.

It's become noticeably more conservative in Muslim communities now and if you track the restrictions on women in places like Iran & Afghanistan in the same time frame, that change is concerning.
Incidentally, it was always the scuttlebutt that ( in many cultures) boys were treated differently ( better) to girls, I would hate to think we are regressing. I hear from some of my teacher friends that disrespect for women in authority is a concern

• all of this. Re disrespecting female teachers, maybe there's crossover with Andrew Tate after his conversion to Islam?

Re burkinis being unsafe, I assume people are able to swim in them? I think Haredi Jewish women wear suits called shvimkleids which provide full coverage and these seem to be safe.

I assume a lot of women who want to swim may go to women only places for that reason as then they wouldn't need to cover so much.
The argument against burkini bans (which I disagree with) was partly that they would stop the most conservative Muslim women from learning to swim (fewer Muslim women in general know how to, I think). I think there is a similar case against niqab/burqa bans but I think we should have them if possible.

I wish there were more research on the responses of women who wore these in countries where they did ban.

That's true, but I have spoken about Haredi practices I disagree with on this thread.

This thread is about the UK. I disagree with fundamentalist evangelicals muscling in on US politics, and the Russian Orthodox church's stance on the war. All behaviour like that should be criticised.

I agree some women are not coerced, and freedom of religion is crucial. There have to be limits though. I'd support an infant circumcision ban in theory though in practice I think one right now would just drive it underground and better regulation is what's needed.

There are boundaries though and we should agree them as a society. Animal & Human sacrifice for example might be an extreme expression of religious freedom.

Perhaps you should get a job in the NHS; you would get to know many Muslims and perhaps realise they are not a homogeneous mass of identical people.

To me this is what islamophobia is and I wonder if people who just think every single muslim on the planet is the same has ever met, spoken to or has friendships with muslims.

Every year people drown because they get out of their depth in clothes that become waterlogged, heavy & restrictive to movement. Pros & cons wrt to insulation & flotation potential but you could try the difference between swimming in loose clothing Vs a skin tight suit, especially for a weak swimmer.

I wouldn’t think so, I’m blind in one eye and can see to drive perfectly well and hold a full driving licence. The additional of something that limits the vision less than tinted sunglasses would be unlikely to cause an issue.

The communist government infiltrated the Russian church because they didn't want competition to their authority - how that manifests today may be in encouraging followers to support the country at war. Religion seems easy to weaponise.

https://www.fpri.org/article/2025/10/how-the-russian-orthodox-church-became-a-weapon-of-political-warfare/

Living near Bradford with a large Asian community not very many wear full burka a few wear the niqab mainly seems to be older ladies, hihab very common , Halifax Town I live in hijab yes others not so common

A “proper” burkini is more like a 3mm wetsuit though. Made of swimsuit material. I do agree nobody should be trying to swim in a billowing gown.

Better to have women only swimming sessions ( if that can be guaranteed). Sleeved swimsuits & wetsuits are a bit of a pain to get out of when wet & can make you overheat in pools.

Burkinis aren't unsafe, they are just long legged and sleeved costumes made of swimsuit material, some have a short skirt built in or a loser tabard top made of swim suit material as well. I mean you probably wouldn't want to go cross channel swimming in them but they seem fine for a bit of paddling in the sea or messing around in a supervised pool.

Plenty of white British men go swimming in knee length, loose shorts which the French and Italians think is unsafe and unhygienic

I live near Bedford, and see multiple daily.

Just because you don't see them, OP, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Er...are you suggesting only white men wear baggy shorts. My experience differs.

I also had a memory of my time in the Middle East and seeing niqabis 'interacting' with their babies and toddlers. I observed many occasions where there was a clear barrier between mother and child. Obviously the mother reveals her face at home but studies show that young children read their mother's face carefully anf it has an impact on development when they don't get any feedback (see the 'still face experiment'). This was another reason why I dislike it.

We were staying in a hotel in Slovenia and there was a large family group of Muslims with the women in full burgas (apparently they went every year).

I was curious as to how they ate. One morning the "lead" couple were having breakfast on the terrace. The lady was facing away and had removed her face covering. This was clear because she was sitting next to a reflective wall. It must be difficult navigating stuff like that.

And a tight head covering. Or maybe that’s called something else? Anyway, Thats what I’ve seen.