To ask how many times you have seen anyone wearing a niqab (full face veil revealing eyes) or burqa (full face veil with mesh cover for eyes)?

[Jane379]

I've seen recent talk on UK Reddit about banning them, and I think we should, for several reasons, but I also think in some ways banning is easy but actually integrating people leading a very conservative Muslim lifestyle is much harder, and should be the main discussion.
European countries that have banned found not many women wore them. What about here? Some estimates say 1%-2% of Muslim women, but we don't really know.

I live in S London in an area with quite a few Muslims and have only seen about 10 niqab wearers in my life. Most in more central areas. I've never seen anyone wearing a burqa.

How typical is this?

I agree mainly with this. Except I don't think it really matters if it's a foreign religion or not. What matters is it doesn't fit with the British values currently held that you show your face in public.

I don't think that's good either. Certainly parents putting young kids in sexualised clothes IS abuse. We can criticise both.

I agree that all societies pressure people to do things that are bad for their wellbeing, to some extent at least.

I live rurally in Wales and have never seen anyone wearing one. I am not in favour of the repression of women but also not in favour of the governement telling people what to wear!

Yes, as Sartre said this may not be strictly religiously mandated but traditionally Muslim men have had dress requirements too.

It could be argued that Judaism is less foreign given Jews have lived here since medieval times. I don't really think this kind of debate is relevant or helpful though to this issue.

Arguably the problem is that Islam has actually often got more conservative rather than less. Part of this is due to our deeply unhelpful dependence on Saudi Arabia. For years Saudi Arabia promoted their fundamentalist 18-th century Wahhabi version of Islam in UK mosques and I think we're reaping the consequences

The earliest evidence of Islamic presence in the UK dates back to 794 AD.

I live in Manchester and I see women wearing a niqab, with just eyes showing, pretty much every time I go into the city centre, and occasionally also in the suburb where I live.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone in a full burqa in my entire life, and that includes when I've travelled in predominantly Muslim countries.

It could be argued that Judaism is less foreign given Jews have lived here since medieval times

You could certainly argue it, but your argument would be wrong.

I see what you mean but clearly plenty of women, including those in government may object too. And plenty would also object to men wearing balaclavas, etc, as you can't see their faces.

That's interesting. I will need to read up on this- I'd assumed Muslims in UK were generally temporarily there as merchants, diplomats etc I hadn't expected there to be signs from so long ago.

Even if there were a wholly new community in the UK, that wouldn't be a problem in itself. The issue is face covering & similar.

And Marco Polo went to live in Imperial China, that didn't make China a Western or Italian nation.

Are we talking continuous presence, structured, and large enough to be significative at a national scale?
Nope, we are not until the late end of the 20th century.

I am looking forward to your next assumption or erroneous fact, it's gonna be a doozy, I am sure. And please, help me out for this bingo card, I am almost there.

Re this : ' The idea that it’s an empowering choice that women make with absolutely no outside influence either culturally or from family traditions/expectations,
is just nonsense.'

I see what you mean but arguably lots of choices are made due to outside pressures we don't ban. The burqa & niqab are ban-worthy imo for several reasons, not solely this one.

Agree double standard like that is awful.

Hindus and Sikhs are fairly new in historical terms too. A community being new isn't the issue, practices like niqabs etc are.

This totally

She is enjoying wearing the hijab/abaya and has loved not being subject to the male gaze.

• doesn't it seem sad that the male gaze makes women go to such efforts to avoid it though? Interesting we never see men covering to avoid women's gazes...

Interdsting men are treating women worse sometimes for not covering enough...

Yes, I did a thread about burqas on FWR under a different name a while back and linked an article which spoke about women in Pakistan sometimes wearing burqas willingly for reasons of competitive piety (ie to get more status among other women) or pressuring others in the family to do so. There are varied reasons and pressure doesn't only come from men.

This is interesting, worrying younger women are doing it more.

I don't think burkinis are an issue though I'd rather no woman feels pressure to cover up.

I think they don't necessarily stop women working, interacting etc outside but certainly make it harder. Re eating, that's a good point : how does that work?

That's a point: many seen in London areas like this may not live here full time .

. It makes them feel safer and more secure, away from the male gaze which I think most women can appreciate to be honest.

• I can understand that but it's so sad. Why should men intomidate women into covering their faces? We don't make men feel that way.

Re eating, that makes sense. I had an idea that Islam discourages eating in public though this may well be incorrect.

We do have few fundamentalist Christians here. Haredi Jews are also a small minority though growing due to high birth rate.

Agree all religions oppress women when they get extreme.

Driving must be tricky for someone whose vision is compromised by a burqa.

This