To ask how many times you have seen anyone wearing a niqab (full face veil revealing eyes) or burqa (full face veil with mesh cover for eyes)?

[Jane379]

I've seen recent talk on UK Reddit about banning them, and I think we should, for several reasons, but I also think in some ways banning is easy but actually integrating people leading a very conservative Muslim lifestyle is much harder, and should be the main discussion.
European countries that have banned found not many women wore them. What about here? Some estimates say 1%-2% of Muslim women, but we don't really know.

I live in S London in an area with quite a few Muslims and have only seen about 10 niqab wearers in my life. Most in more central areas. I've never seen anyone wearing a burqa.

How typical is this?

FGM, polygamy, child marriage all do break the law. Laws that are there for everyone and designed to prevent harm. (Although I don’t actually care about polygamy, personally.)

• I think this misses the point that FGM is only against the law because activists rightly campaigned for it. Just as some are campaigning for infant circumcision bans now (which I also agree with, but that's another topic)

This, I can imagine those unhappy would feel huge community pressure not to speak out.

Moreover, even if the women were all happy, I think it should be banned as it should be a basic standard that everyone shows their face.

I wasn’t being naive, I was being sarcastic.

My point being that no one is asking to be liberated. It is condescending to an entire faith and reeks of white saviour complex.

Yes, I expect that women who do this will try to get sun, exercise in all female groups (at least I think some do) but obviously it makes it harder.

This is another important point.

I don't think there is a single woman who would choose to cover herself up to her eyes. That's the culture she is living in that makes her do it.

• people are very varied, there'll always be some who will do something willingly.. That doesn't make it right. As I said to pp, the strongest argument to ban may not be about whether the women are all forced but about basic standards of being able to interpret facial expressions.

In the part of Birmingham where I live, I see women wearing the niqab fairly frequently but very very rarely see Muslim men wearing anything but 'Western' attire.

Missing the point, perhaps deliberately. But, addressing your concern about religious observance:

European Christians tortured and executed tens of thousands of women for witchcraft. Absolutely okay, as it was mandated by the common faith, right?

. In a society that focuses a lot of women's looks, 'opting out' can be a bit of an F you I imagine. I certainly didn't get the impression that any of the women were doing it to please someone else, they were all pretty strong characters.

• interesting. This is what I think re motives: they are probably varied and quite a lot may genuinely want to for various reasons.

Covering feels more like a capitulation than a F you though. I mean, if women have to cover their faces and bodies to be able to be free from worrying about how men perceive their appearance, isn't that a win for the patriarchy, if anything?

Good point re men. Muslim men have dress requirements too which it seems many ignore.

I see what you mean re bans' effect. That worries me too.

Unfortunately the Quran isn't the only source of Islamic teaching. The Hadith (narratives of the life of Muhammad and his followers) adds the requirement that women should cover their faces and there is evidence Muhammad's wives did this, despite several playing pretty active roles in the community. It's unfortunate but it does make it harder to argue against theologically. Thus I think arguments against should avoid theology and just focus on UK standards of showing the face in public.

I think all modest dress codes targeting women like that are wrong. I expressed my disagreement with the Haredi Jewish shave-head-and-wear-wig practice upthread.

Interesting! I think this may be more of a thing in the north where there are more conservative Muslims? The Muslims in my area are often quite liberal re dress, some women don't wear a head covering at all.

I do disagree strongly with children being made to wear coverings when there's no mandate at all for that : but as you say, that's not very common.

I thought of mentioning We Are Lady Parts upthread! I do really like it, the comment about some girls dressing more strictly to rebel reminded me of Amina.

Re bans...I see what you mean. Women shouldn't have to cover so much to feel safe...it's difficult. I do think there is a case for banning on the grounds that all should show their faces. There's also the argument it directly links to very fundamentalist forms of Islam though this won't apply to all.

I think they’re horrible and designed to keep women hidden away. We live in a progressive society apparently so they don’t have a place in the UK in 2026. I’d like to see them banned.

I'd honestly have preferred wearing one as a young woman in London, to reduce street harassment. My Muslim friends actually felt more free, in a way.

In the heat you can wear very little underneath and feel light and airy.

And why are people saying they never feel the sun on their skin or on their face, they have homes and gardens innit 😂

Daily in my area of northan england for niquab, monthly for burqa. I work in healthcare and normally they will remove for examination but not always . It does make examination hard . I have alot of hijab wearing collegues who find it more worrisome than i do and see it as opressive. Im on the fence about a ban, I ageee with right choose but find it os a significant barrier to communication

I'm sorry you had so much harassment. But the best solution should be for men to act decently, not for women to cover up. I'm not sure covering necessarily does reduce harassment: certainly countries like Egypt where women often cover still have very bad street harassment.

Agree the gardens though- I dislike niqabs & burqas for several reasons but exaggerating the situation isn't helpful.

I dislike niqabs & burqas for several reasons but exaggerating the situation isn't helpful.

You baffle me OP. By your own admission, you’ve only seen someone wearing a Niqab at most 10 times in your life. And never seen someone wearing a Burqa. So why the dislike and the endless posts about them being banned as you want to see their facial expressions??

This is just racism.

A government telling a woman what she cannot wear is just as bad as a government telling us what we must wear.

Very rarely, never in my hometown, a few times in Sheffield, mainly in the areas where a lot of Muslim people live like Sharrow or Attercliffe. I don't think I've ever seen anyone with the full face covering in Sheffield city centre or Meadowhall, it might not even be allowed in Meadowhall.

I sometimes wear a mask when I go out. If it's sunny I might have sunglasses too. Should that be banned too, or is it only muslims whose clothes you want to control?

There is not a woman alive who would choose to wear this if they really had a choice and were completely free form any repercussions of making it.

Interesting : I imagine maybe they feel happier showing faces at kids' parties or similar as there's less likely to be unrelated men there?

I don't think that. People on here say that about selling sex, surrogacy, other stuff. I don't think any of those are good but people vary enormously and there will always be some who do choose for whatever reason.

Imo whether it should be banned is a separate question.

I live in Surrey, and work in Croydon. I’d say i’ve seen a fair few over the years, but not loads no.

May I ask why you wear a mask? For health reasons? Or something else? I understand if you'd rather not give more info.