To ask how many times you have seen anyone wearing a niqab (full face veil revealing eyes) or burqa (full face veil with mesh cover for eyes)?

[Jane379]

I've seen recent talk on UK Reddit about banning them, and I think we should, for several reasons, but I also think in some ways banning is easy but actually integrating people leading a very conservative Muslim lifestyle is much harder, and should be the main discussion.
European countries that have banned found not many women wore them. What about here? Some estimates say 1%-2% of Muslim women, but we don't really know.

I live in S London in an area with quite a few Muslims and have only seen about 10 niqab wearers in my life. Most in more central areas. I've never seen anyone wearing a burqa.

How typical is this?

I feel exactly the same, @Growlybear83 .

There have been days when I've looked so rough I've almost felt like wearing one myself...

no I’m not literally saying that.

Are you literally saying that every Muslim woman is being forced to wear a burkha, that every woman we see is abused and that 0% of women would wear it by choice or belief in the religious requirement?

I don’t believe that anyone should be forced into religious practices against their will, and accusing me of that demonstrates a complete lack of ability to see beyond a limited scope that fits your narrative.

I too would like to see face coverings of any type (whether niquab, masks, etc) disallowed in public facing services roles, on access/disability//communication grounds. I have some hearing loss and face coverings muffle sound; if i can't see the person's face, of if their mouth is covered, I can't reliably understand what they are saying.

This is where I am too. I would genuinely be delighted if a simple legal ban would give women more agency and choice, which is surely the objective? but honestly I don't think it would.

I don't think there is a single woman who would choose to cover herself up to her eyes. That's the culture she is living in that makes her do it.

I don't have any patience for patriarchal abuse. See also FGM, abortion bans, traveller girls leaving school early to learn to be housewives etc.

Would it need to be a ban though, a law specifying what women could wear - or could you just specify you needed to be served by someone you could lip read from?

I used to train at a combat sport gym where we had a women's class that a lot of women who wore religious clothing attended, mainly abayas, some would cover the lower part of their faces in public. I got the impression it was quite freeing, in that they weren't subject to the expectation to look desirable to men, eg they might be into fashion for what they enjoyed wearing underneath but it was for them, no one else. In a society that focuses a lot of women's looks, 'opting out' can be a bit of an F you I imagine. I certainly didn't get the impression that any of the women were doing it to please someone else, they were all pretty strong characters.

But UK society isn't just one culture, it's multi-cultural. And people should be able to wear what they like, according to whichever culture they regard as theirs.

As long as a woman is freely choosing to wear a niqab or a burqa, that's fine imo.

A lot of it is cultural - I see a lot of Somali grannies wearing it. They don’t really leave the house much, and when they do they are fully covered. They won’t be covered up at home.

I have also seen some of these self-same grannies shouting abuse at their sons and throwing jugs of water at them (in hospital) - definitely not cowed by men. And absolutely nothing to suggest they hold extremist religious views.

A few weeks ago, I had blood taken by a phlebotomist who was wearing a niqab. She didn't seem to have had a problem getting a job and participating in society.

She asked if I could hear ok, and explained that she always asked so that she could remove it if a patient needed to lip read.

If everyone has the right to wear what they want, surely everyone also has the right to express their views on what people wear? Freedom all round, surely

I work in Cambridge too and regularly see them.

And while I was not commenting on a ban or not, I disagree that just because things are normal in another culture they shouldn't be banned here

When I go to view a church abroad I cover my shoulders if asked as that is their culture. I don't understand the view that people living here shouldn't adopt our culture

When I go to view a church abroad I cover my shoulders
That's completely different you are visiting a specific religious building you aren't covering your shoulders once you leave there walking the streets are you?

No, that's idiot logic. The first doesn't affect other people, the second one does. Eg someone has the right to be Jewish, that doesn't give someone else the right to make anti semitic comments to them. If your actions negatively affect other people then no, you're not free to do as you wish. And before you claim that someone dressing a certain way affects you, consider whether it actually causes you any harm, or whether it's just something you don't like because of your what assumptions you're making about that person.

No, however if I was in the middle east I wouldn't go about in a bikini top and shorts like I would I countries it acceptable in...

A lot i wouldnt be able to say exact amount, also south London.

So what are you saying you want to see laws that restrict your personal freedom as we see in some countries in the middle east? Or just laws that impact personal freedom of others?

Very few, maybe one every few months, live in Manchester.

I reckon I semi-regularly see people wearing an abaya + hijab, occasionally see a niqab and I don't think I have ever seen a woman wearing a burka including eye covering. Niqab is certainly infrequently enough that I notice it every time I see it, but not surprising enough to remember every occasion, if that makes sense. (Another East Anglian.)

South London, see these women every day.

I strongly believe it should be banned, because same rules should apply to everyone. If we ban teens from wearing a baclava to enter school, same rule should apply to others.

More importantly, because they represent something that as a society we disagree with. We dont' make exception for cultural tattoos or piercing, and a whole lot of "cultural" customs.

The irony on Mumsnet is the anti islamic threads usually are pushing for the type of legislation/controls that would be more fitting of the countries that they are so fearful of. Controls on women's clothing, prisons as punishment not rehabilitation, the right for vigilante/eye for an eye justice etc. Some of the stuff spouted on here about how we should deal with asylum seekers or people in Burkhas would fit right in in UAE.

Everyone does have the right to express their opinion. What we don’t have is the right to is to enforce our opinion on others. Given that most of the posts are about how awful it is that women are forced to wear these items they would surely agree that enforcing a different dress code would also be wrong?

Are you as strongly opposed to Jewish orthodox women covering their hair and wearing modest clothing from ankle to neck, or orthodox Christian women covering their hair and wearing modest clothing from ankle to neck? Or is it just when the religious clothing is linked to Islam that it becomes a concern?

@InfoSecInTheCity I saw a man online who had posted a stance against women wearing the hijab, and people had trolled the comments with pictures of the Virgin Mary, it was wonderful.

Lots. Used to teach in Huddersfield and also worked in Keighley for a spell so saw a few there. Grew up in Bradford so saw a fair few there too. Actually saw children wearing them when I went back to Bradford last summer which surprised me. I’ve never seen children wear them before this and tbh most don’t wear the hijab till puberty. I now work in Manchester and don’t see as many but occasionally do.

I don’t know if you get out into big diverse cities much if you almost never see them really! They are relatively uncommon I suppose. I don’t know how I feel about banning them. I know some women choose to wear them and feel safer like that, I don’t like removing a woman’s choice. Yes yes some are forced but some also choose and prefer to wear one… I recommend the TV series We Are Lady Parts as a positive representation of Muslim women.

On the one occasion I was served by a lady wearing a niqab, as soon as I said I lipread, she took me into the pharmacy consulting room and removed it. There were other people present in there who would have been able to serve a male.

Still don't have a problem with women choosing to wear something despite all the posters that want to tell them what they can and cannot wear because they think it's not fair that they are allegedly told what they can and cannot wear.

I think the niqab is being brought into question more than hijab though. Hair coverage is totally normal and fine, see it every single day in Manchester but the niqab/burqa is a bit more extreme. As I said though, if the woman chooses this I don’t think it should be taken away. I don’t appreciate the state governing a woman’s body.