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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is Andy Burnham reasonable to say only a small minority of women object to men being in their toilets? YABU he's right, YANBU he's wrong *titled tweaked by MNHQ at OP's request*

1000 replies

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 20/05/2026 09:39

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-15830845/Andy-Burnham-men-identify-women-use-female-toilets.html

'I don't think that's a majority view. I think it's a minority view and quite a small minority view, actually. But it is a view so you can't completely ignore it. Possibly they might be women who have experienced male violence at some point in their life. I don't know, that's one way of looking at it.'

Andy Burnham backs men who identify as female using women's toilets

The Greater Manchester mayor said the idea that single sex spaces like toilets should be protected for biological women was a 'minority view'.

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-15830845/Andy-Burnham-men-identify-women-use-female-toilets.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 20/05/2026 22:31

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 20/05/2026 22:25

This is embarrassingly incoherent.

You start with “women have most to fear from men” and somehow arrive at “therefore males should be allowed into women’s spaces.”

That is not an argument. It is a logic crash.

“Cis, straight, white men” is just word fog. The relevant safeguarding category is male. Not white male. Not straight male. Not badly dressed male. Male.

Women’s spaces exist because male people, as a class, pose a different risk to female people, as a class. A male person does not exit that risk category by putting on a dress, changing pronouns, or saying he feels like a woman.

And the prison data makes the “transwomen are safer than men” line look ridiculous. MoJ figures cited to Parliament showed male-born trans-identifying prisoners had sex-offence convictions at a much higher rate than male prisoners generally, and vastly higher than female prisoners.

So no, this is not some magically harmless subset of males.

The cubicle point is equally dim. Men’s toilets have cubicles. If cubicles solve the problem, use those. Women are not objecting because they think everyone can literally see them wee. They are objecting because privacy, dignity, safety and boundaries matter.

And the urinal waffle is irrelevant. If men dislike sharing with transmen, they can object too. It does not follow that women must surrender female spaces to males.

This whole post is just: “Men are dangerous, so let some of them into women’s spaces, because cubicles.”

Utter nonsense.

Good points, well made.
would you happen to have those MOJ stats to hand, or a link to them? Or anyone reading this? I may want them for another post, ta!

FlirtsWithRhinos · 20/05/2026 22:33

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/05/2026 22:24

You do you. I will worry about men and what they do, whether they pop on a dress or not. There is no such thing as CIS, unless you mean the Construction Industry Scheme? But so sweet that you felt the need to stick up for men!

It is odd how often the women who pop up here to support the transwomen men say CIS rather than cis. It's not an acronym. I don't quite understand why so many different people would make the same mistake. What do they all think it stands for?

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 20/05/2026 22:34

FlirtsWithRhinos · 20/05/2026 22:33

It is odd how often the women who pop up here to support the transwomen men say CIS rather than cis. It's not an acronym. I don't quite understand why so many different people would make the same mistake. What do they all think it stands for?

Cocks In Skirts?

I know thats not right but I was too pleased with myself to not post it.

OP posts:
ThatCyanCat · 20/05/2026 22:35

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 20/05/2026 22:27

Because men in dresses with a hard on want validation and / or knowingly impinging on women's rights and making women uncomfortable is their kink.

Apologies for my sex.

Well yes, but what about all these women (presumably) wanging on about how fabulous they are for wanting to undress and toilet alongside men who claim to be women because they're so different from men who don't? Why aren't these women happy to have an additional third space so they can shit and strip off with men and the rest of us don't have to?

I get that the men need to be in a room marked for women to be validated, but why do the women need that as well? They don't need to be validated as anything so why aren’t they happy with an additional, designated unisex space?

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 20/05/2026 22:35

FlirtsWithRhinos · 20/05/2026 22:33

It is odd how often the women who pop up here to support the transwomen men say CIS rather than cis. It's not an acronym. I don't quite understand why so many different people would make the same mistake. What do they all think it stands for?

ooh is this a new thing? It's an acronym now? I mean, I know that some posters love the obfuscation of using lots of big words, but if we're getting into the realm of acronyms that clash with all the other Mumsnet acronyms, we're going to need a bigger guide book!

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 20/05/2026 22:36

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 20/05/2026 22:31

Good points, well made.
would you happen to have those MOJ stats to hand, or a link to them? Or anyone reading this? I may want them for another post, ta!

Certainly:

England and Wales, 31 March 2024: of 245 transgender prisoners whose legal gender was male, 151 were convicted of a sexual offence. That is 61.6%. The MoJ answer says this group includes those who now identify as women, non-binary or gender-fluid.

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20298

OP posts:
BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 20/05/2026 22:36

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 20/05/2026 22:36

Certainly:

England and Wales, 31 March 2024: of 245 transgender prisoners whose legal gender was male, 151 were convicted of a sexual offence. That is 61.6%. The MoJ answer says this group includes those who now identify as women, non-binary or gender-fluid.

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20298

Fab, thanks!

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 20/05/2026 22:37

ThatCyanCat · 20/05/2026 22:35

Well yes, but what about all these women (presumably) wanging on about how fabulous they are for wanting to undress and toilet alongside men who claim to be women because they're so different from men who don't? Why aren't these women happy to have an additional third space so they can shit and strip off with men and the rest of us don't have to?

I get that the men need to be in a room marked for women to be validated, but why do the women need that as well? They don't need to be validated as anything so why aren’t they happy with an additional, designated unisex space?

Ah those women, I'm afraid as the resident interloper male I will have to pass that on to the females reading this - I would love to know but will not presume...

OP posts:
Northermcharn · 20/05/2026 22:37

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/05/2026 22:24

You do you. I will worry about men and what they do, whether they pop on a dress or not. There is no such thing as CIS, unless you mean the Construction Industry Scheme? But so sweet that you felt the need to stick up for men!

Yes. When I read the word 'cis', I sign out because I know the person who has used it, has no logical thought. On that post for example, when I saw the word 'cis', I stopped reading the post. I can't tell you what it says, but I can tell you it'll be a pile of gender wang.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/05/2026 22:40

Northermcharn · 20/05/2026 22:37

Yes. When I read the word 'cis', I sign out because I know the person who has used it, has no logical thought. On that post for example, when I saw the word 'cis', I stopped reading the post. I can't tell you what it says, but I can tell you it'll be a pile of gender wang.

And you would be correct.

5128gap · 20/05/2026 22:41

FlirtsWithRhinos · 20/05/2026 22:33

It is odd how often the women who pop up here to support the transwomen men say CIS rather than cis. It's not an acronym. I don't quite understand why so many different people would make the same mistake. What do they all think it stands for?

Certus Indubitatus Solidus.

curious79 · 20/05/2026 22:42

I sincerely hope the people of Makerfield kick this man and his bloody female unsupportive views into the long grass

Wearenotborg · 20/05/2026 22:43

FlirtsWithRhinos · 20/05/2026 22:33

It is odd how often the women who pop up here to support the transwomen men say CIS rather than cis. It's not an acronym. I don't quite understand why so many different people would make the same mistake. What do they all think it stands for?

Maybe they’re suggesting construction workers are the most dangerous group to women?

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 20/05/2026 22:43

ThatCyanCat · 20/05/2026 22:35

Well yes, but what about all these women (presumably) wanging on about how fabulous they are for wanting to undress and toilet alongside men who claim to be women because they're so different from men who don't? Why aren't these women happy to have an additional third space so they can shit and strip off with men and the rest of us don't have to?

I get that the men need to be in a room marked for women to be validated, but why do the women need that as well? They don't need to be validated as anything so why aren’t they happy with an additional, designated unisex space?

I think that might be getting a little bit too adjacent to hard work. You want to feel virtuous and "down with the kids" but you really don't want to have to do anything too difficult, like campaign for more mixed-sex spaces for all your chums. Kind of like how "inclusion' means rainbows and Tinkerbell wings, not more money for Access to Work or hearing loop systems.

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 20/05/2026 22:45

5128gap · 20/05/2026 22:41

Certus Indubitatus Solidus.

Huh? Don't make me get out my Latin dictionary...

5128gap · 20/05/2026 22:46

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 20/05/2026 22:45

Huh? Don't make me get out my Latin dictionary...

Real. CIS means Real.

frazzled1 · 20/05/2026 22:47

“Cis, straight, white men” is just word fog. The relevant safeguarding category is male. Not white male. Not straight male. Not badly dressed male. Male.

Women’s spaces exist because male people, as a class, pose a different risk to female people, as a class. A male person does not exit that risk category by putting on a dress, changing pronouns, or saying he feels like a woman.

👏👏👏 Andy Burnham should have this printed on a tea towel....

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 20/05/2026 22:49

5128gap · 20/05/2026 22:46

Real. CIS means Real.

Nah. Pull the other one!

5128gap · 20/05/2026 22:54

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 20/05/2026 22:49

Nah. Pull the other one!

You got me. I'm joking. It's not an acronym. But in my head whenever I see cis I substitute the word real, because it makes me feel a bit less annoyed. And as far as I'm concerned means the same.

GreenCandleWax · 20/05/2026 22:54

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 20/05/2026 18:07

if you want to get really angry...

https://x.com/Glinner/status/2057088963765313582

What on earth did she keep smiling for? and worse, why was she apologising? Towards the end she said "I'm sorry but" several times.
If only women would stop feeling they have to be nice and compliant, especially in the face of an arrogant, ignorant tit like him shouting her down.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 20/05/2026 22:55

firef1y · 20/05/2026 22:20

I (and all other women and girls) have far to worry about as it goes for CIS, straight white men than we ever will from any other demographic including transwomen.

And besides anything else we have lockable cubicles for all toileting, unlike men who stand next to each while peeing and from what I can guess occasionally sneak a look at one another's tackle

transwommen are men. They’re no different than other men. They’re the same risk to us.

and if cubicles protect us then transwomen will be absolutely fine in the cubicles in the men’s facilities right? Right?

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 20/05/2026 23:18

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 20/05/2026 22:55

transwommen are men. They’re no different than other men. They’re the same risk to us.

and if cubicles protect us then transwomen will be absolutely fine in the cubicles in the men’s facilities right? Right?

Sometimes I feel like I'm stuck in a time loop, saying these same things over and over again! I must've read explanations just like yours at least seven times tonight! Kind of like fighting off the hordes of Orcs in LOTR 😁

DrBlackbird · 21/05/2026 03:11

Thebigarsedbitch · 20/05/2026 16:22

A unisex toilet is one that is completely self contained, with floor to ceiling walls, lockable from the inside and includes its own washbasin and hand drying facilities. Thus it affords a much greater level of privacy and enables women to change sanitary products and clean up after period accidents discreetly.

These have to suffice in bars, cafes, restaurants and other public spaces where there's insufficient space for separate facilities Even so, it's hateful to have share facilities with men who often have very poor toilet etiquette, widdle all over the seat and floor, leave shit down the side of the pan and never give a thought to cleaning up after themselves.

And frankly, it matters not one whit what you think because thankfully womens rights belong to all of us and can't be dismantled by trans maidens or people like you who obviously have no regard for womens' dignity, privacy and safety.

Just for the record, I am in complete agreement with you. I was quoting @simpsonthecat who was adopting a slightly more cavalier attitude to sharing toilets with men and referenced how sharing unisex toilets was the norm in the continent.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/05/2026 07:33

Quick look at the poll - it’s still remaining at 84% think Andy Burnham is BU rather than OP, with 2227 votes cast.

ItWasAlwaysMaybelline · 21/05/2026 07:40

It may well be that not many women object vocally to the bloke at the time - but it won't be because they're ok with his presence; it'll be because they very sensibly fear he'll kick off if they speak up.

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