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Is Andy Burnham reasonable to say only a small minority of women object to men being in their toilets? YABU he's right, YANBU he's wrong *titled tweaked by MNHQ at OP's request*

1000 replies

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 20/05/2026 09:39

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-15830845/Andy-Burnham-men-identify-women-use-female-toilets.html

'I don't think that's a majority view. I think it's a minority view and quite a small minority view, actually. But it is a view so you can't completely ignore it. Possibly they might be women who have experienced male violence at some point in their life. I don't know, that's one way of looking at it.'

Andy Burnham backs men who identify as female using women's toilets

The Greater Manchester mayor said the idea that single sex spaces like toilets should be protected for biological women was a 'minority view'.

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-15830845/Andy-Burnham-men-identify-women-use-female-toilets.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
5128gap · 20/05/2026 21:32

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 20/05/2026 21:01

That’s not really the point though.

The issue is not just whether toilets swing an election by themselves. The issue is what this says about him.

Voters can smell someone who does not actually believe anything. Burnham’s problem is that he appears to try on opinions like jackets, keep them on for a bit, then swap them when the room changes.

On this issue he has managed to sound patronising to women, vague on safeguarding, and slippery on the law. That is a terrible combination.

People may vote on money, public services and Reform, yes. But they also judge character. And if he looks like a man saying whatever he thinks the audience wants to hear, he will get eviscerated for it.

Rightly.

If he has sounded those things on this issue, he will only have been heard by those who were paying attention to him on this particular issue.
Most people for whom this issue is peripheral will have just heard him give a non committal, dismissive answer about something they don't much care about. Four years ago.
I think its optimistic of you to think he would be envicerated for the comparatively minor sin of saying what people want to hear.
We know how forgiving the electorate can be of all sorts dubious character traits if they believe the politician in question is their best hope for a better life, is listening, and indeed says what they want to hear.
Andy Burnham is extremely popular. Its going to take more than those comments on this issue to make people who rate him review their opinion of his character.

senua · 20/05/2026 21:34

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 20/05/2026 12:42

He said he believed it was a "minority view" that men shouldn't use women's toilets.

Thereby implying that it is a majority view that men should use women's toilets.

He also said that the minority view probably comes from women who have suffered some form of trauma at the hands of men, thereby implying that women who haven't suffered trauma (ostensibly in the majority) don't hold the view that men shouldn't be using the women's toilets.

So, only if you are a woman who has suffered trauma, should your views be taken into consideration, and even then, only as a minority view.

Edited

So, only if you are a woman who has suffered trauma ...
He doesn't seem to understand that all women are in a constant state of being aware that they could be next. That's why we need single sex spaces.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 20/05/2026 21:35

5128gap · 20/05/2026 21:32

If he has sounded those things on this issue, he will only have been heard by those who were paying attention to him on this particular issue.
Most people for whom this issue is peripheral will have just heard him give a non committal, dismissive answer about something they don't much care about. Four years ago.
I think its optimistic of you to think he would be envicerated for the comparatively minor sin of saying what people want to hear.
We know how forgiving the electorate can be of all sorts dubious character traits if they believe the politician in question is their best hope for a better life, is listening, and indeed says what they want to hear.
Andy Burnham is extremely popular. Its going to take more than those comments on this issue to make people who rate him review their opinion of his character.

You can ignore the five mainstream media links posted today or the live LBC call in if you want but I’m fairly sure the electorate won’t on a month.

the knives are out already

and with the last 24 hours taken into account he is in a worse way than before.

AND the EHEC guidance coming out tomorrow he won’t be able to dodge this….

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OP posts:
EasternStandard · 20/05/2026 21:46

5128gap · 20/05/2026 21:32

If he has sounded those things on this issue, he will only have been heard by those who were paying attention to him on this particular issue.
Most people for whom this issue is peripheral will have just heard him give a non committal, dismissive answer about something they don't much care about. Four years ago.
I think its optimistic of you to think he would be envicerated for the comparatively minor sin of saying what people want to hear.
We know how forgiving the electorate can be of all sorts dubious character traits if they believe the politician in question is their best hope for a better life, is listening, and indeed says what they want to hear.
Andy Burnham is extremely popular. Its going to take more than those comments on this issue to make people who rate him review their opinion of his character.

The added bit is people who don’t mind him but want Starmer replaced could vote for him to get that outcome. But if Burnham is too annoying they’ll just go for Reform.

I do think the issue has moved on since 2022 and Labour politicians are less committed to statements that were used then. The Greens still are committed but for Labour it’s become a we won’t do much on this.

Gillydoller · 20/05/2026 21:49

EasternStandard · 20/05/2026 21:46

The added bit is people who don’t mind him but want Starmer replaced could vote for him to get that outcome. But if Burnham is too annoying they’ll just go for Reform.

I do think the issue has moved on since 2022 and Labour politicians are less committed to statements that were used then. The Greens still are committed but for Labour it’s become a we won’t do much on this.

They can’t just not do much though. That makes people very reluctant to vote for them. If they don’t come out firmly and state that they support the rights of women to their single sex spaces I just assume they are huge misogynists, as do many others.

5128gap · 20/05/2026 21:55

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 20/05/2026 21:35

You can ignore the five mainstream media links posted today or the live LBC call in if you want but I’m fairly sure the electorate won’t on a month.

the knives are out already

and with the last 24 hours taken into account he is in a worse way than before.

AND the EHEC guidance coming out tomorrow he won’t be able to dodge this….

Of course Reform have the knives out.
Though in all honesty they'd probably do better trying to smear Rebecca Shepherd at this point, as her support for local business and SEN provision could prove more compelling than "hang on, he serviced my boiler last week". Which would help Burnham a great deal.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 20/05/2026 21:56

5128gap · 20/05/2026 21:55

Of course Reform have the knives out.
Though in all honesty they'd probably do better trying to smear Rebecca Shepherd at this point, as her support for local business and SEN provision could prove more compelling than "hang on, he serviced my boiler last week". Which would help Burnham a great deal.

Fairly sure 51% have the knives out...

OP posts:
senua · 20/05/2026 22:00

I do think the issue has moved on since 2022 ... for Labour it’s become a "we won’t do much on this".
The electorate has moved on, too. They've noticed that Labour never do much on women's issues. We're forever at the back of the queue because there are, apparently, always more pressing problems.

EasternStandard · 20/05/2026 22:00

Gillydoller · 20/05/2026 21:49

They can’t just not do much though. That makes people very reluctant to vote for them. If they don’t come out firmly and state that they support the rights of women to their single sex spaces I just assume they are huge misogynists, as do many others.

You have a point and it is infuriating but I do
think the move for politicians over the last few years does show they care about losing votes, contrary to some posts on here saying they don’t.

Someone put Starmer’s lines up for each year from 2020 on another thread and it shows the pressure does work. Granted they’re just in limbo which is annoying, but moved on from cervix stuff.

CornishDaughteroftheDawn · 20/05/2026 22:02

nicepotoftea · 20/05/2026 19:53

I don't think he can escape making a comment.

Bridget Phillipson promised that she would lay the revised EHRC code before Parliament this month, so it will be in the news, and it is politically expedient for a variety of people to ensure that he is asked the question.

I think it’s becoming a measure of how willing politicians are to pretend they don’t understand basic biology and reality to appease a vocal minority.

Politicians that spout this trans activist nonsense show how feeble minded they are and how little they regard women.

When they tell us who they are we should listen. If he says this mansplaining anti women stuff now when he actually wants the votes of women, how bad will he if he gets more power?

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/05/2026 22:10

CornishDaughteroftheDawn · 20/05/2026 22:02

I think it’s becoming a measure of how willing politicians are to pretend they don’t understand basic biology and reality to appease a vocal minority.

Politicians that spout this trans activist nonsense show how feeble minded they are and how little they regard women.

When they tell us who they are we should listen. If he says this mansplaining anti women stuff now when he actually wants the votes of women, how bad will he if he gets more power?

This.

MrsColinRobinson · 20/05/2026 22:11

Findingthesilverlining · 20/05/2026 17:02

You are also being unreasonable asking the most transphobic echo chamber on the Internet this question.

Oh shush, adults talking

FlirtsWithRhinos · 20/05/2026 22:17

BoredZelda · 20/05/2026 20:26

Anyone who thinks MN is a proper cross section in this issue has fallen foul of the echo chamber.

None of the polling is particularly clear and the numbers who support banning trans women from toilets is not a slam dunk majority. Interestingly, the numbers who who perceive it as a risk appears to be really quite low, but if you listen to the majority on here you’d think the vast majority of women would feel threatened by a trans woman in the ladies toilets.

Not threatened, no.

Just Insulted. Powerless. Marginalised. Reduced.

Because of the sexism.

Because of having such a sexist conception of womanhood forced upon me under the guise of "tolerance".

Because society allowing trans women into women's spaces, women's rights and even women's language is such a slap in the face to female people.

Because it highlights how to so many people, female people don't even matter enough to have our own name left to us. Not if a man wants to use it to label some feeling he has.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/05/2026 22:19

I think that post was quite revealing in and of itself.

firef1y · 20/05/2026 22:20

I (and all other women and girls) have far to worry about as it goes for CIS, straight white men than we ever will from any other demographic including transwomen.

And besides anything else we have lockable cubicles for all toileting, unlike men who stand next to each while peeing and from what I can guess occasionally sneak a look at one another's tackle

BananaPeels · 20/05/2026 22:22

firef1y · 20/05/2026 22:20

I (and all other women and girls) have far to worry about as it goes for CIS, straight white men than we ever will from any other demographic including transwomen.

And besides anything else we have lockable cubicles for all toileting, unlike men who stand next to each while peeing and from what I can guess occasionally sneak a look at one another's tackle

Can I ask what is the difference between the 2 specifically which means one group you have to worry about and the other you don’t. When all is said and done there is zero test that could be performed to differentiate them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/05/2026 22:24

firef1y · 20/05/2026 22:20

I (and all other women and girls) have far to worry about as it goes for CIS, straight white men than we ever will from any other demographic including transwomen.

And besides anything else we have lockable cubicles for all toileting, unlike men who stand next to each while peeing and from what I can guess occasionally sneak a look at one another's tackle

You do you. I will worry about men and what they do, whether they pop on a dress or not. There is no such thing as CIS, unless you mean the Construction Industry Scheme? But so sweet that you felt the need to stick up for men!

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 20/05/2026 22:25

firef1y · 20/05/2026 22:20

I (and all other women and girls) have far to worry about as it goes for CIS, straight white men than we ever will from any other demographic including transwomen.

And besides anything else we have lockable cubicles for all toileting, unlike men who stand next to each while peeing and from what I can guess occasionally sneak a look at one another's tackle

This is embarrassingly incoherent.

You start with “women have most to fear from men” and somehow arrive at “therefore males should be allowed into women’s spaces.”

That is not an argument. It is a logic crash.

“Cis, straight, white men” is just word fog. The relevant safeguarding category is male. Not white male. Not straight male. Not badly dressed male. Male.

Women’s spaces exist because male people, as a class, pose a different risk to female people, as a class. A male person does not exit that risk category by putting on a dress, changing pronouns, or saying he feels like a woman.

And the prison data makes the “transwomen are safer than men” line look ridiculous. MoJ figures cited to Parliament showed male-born trans-identifying prisoners had sex-offence convictions at a much higher rate than male prisoners generally, and vastly higher than female prisoners.

So no, this is not some magically harmless subset of males.

The cubicle point is equally dim. Men’s toilets have cubicles. If cubicles solve the problem, use those. Women are not objecting because they think everyone can literally see them wee. They are objecting because privacy, dignity, safety and boundaries matter.

And the urinal waffle is irrelevant. If men dislike sharing with transmen, they can object too. It does not follow that women must surrender female spaces to males.

This whole post is just: “Men are dangerous, so let some of them into women’s spaces, because cubicles.”

Utter nonsense.

OP posts:
ThatCyanCat · 20/05/2026 22:25

Why don't all the women who are clamouring to share spaces with men who claim to be women campaign for and create additional mixed sex third spaces to do just that, and leave the rest of us who need a single sex space alone?

Why is that not acceptable?

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 20/05/2026 22:27

ThatCyanCat · 20/05/2026 22:25

Why don't all the women who are clamouring to share spaces with men who claim to be women campaign for and create additional mixed sex third spaces to do just that, and leave the rest of us who need a single sex space alone?

Why is that not acceptable?

Because men in dresses with a hard on want validation and / or knowingly impinging on women's rights and making women uncomfortable is their kink.

Apologies for my sex.

OP posts:
FlirtsWithRhinos · 20/05/2026 22:28

firef1y · 20/05/2026 22:20

I (and all other women and girls) have far to worry about as it goes for CIS, straight white men than we ever will from any other demographic including transwomen.

And besides anything else we have lockable cubicles for all toileting, unlike men who stand next to each while peeing and from what I can guess occasionally sneak a look at one another's tackle

There's lots of men we probably don't need to worry about.

Why do only the transwomen men get to go in the ladies? Surely your argument applies to all those other nice men too?

Is there something that makes transwomen men more like women than any other men? Not just something that they think makes them a woman, but something objective that every woman could recognise in themselves and in transwomen men but not in any other nice men?

(I mean, there's actually no evidence transwomen do offend at the rate of women rather than the men they are, but for the sake of your argument let's pretend they do...)

PuggyPuggyPuggy · 20/05/2026 22:29

nicepotoftea · 20/05/2026 12:46

And why are all those women wearing trousers queuing when they could be using the trouser toilets?

"Trouser toilet" makes me think of some kind of contraption involving a catheter, a bottle, and plenty of sticky tape 😆

I would be interested to know if the queuing situation would be affected though. I'd say most women mostly wear trousers most of the year, so on the one hand you're looking at mainly school girls and old ladies; some chaps in kilts; anything in the way of a robe i.e. druids, wizards, the clergy? Plus, some people in non-western clothing as worn in desert / hot climates, none of which I know the name of. On the other hand, everyone else, at least 10 months of the year.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/05/2026 22:29

ThatCyanCat · 20/05/2026 22:25

Why don't all the women who are clamouring to share spaces with men who claim to be women campaign for and create additional mixed sex third spaces to do just that, and leave the rest of us who need a single sex space alone?

Why is that not acceptable?

It’s quite a mystery, isn’t it?

Northermcharn · 20/05/2026 22:30

CornishDaughteroftheDawn · 20/05/2026 22:02

I think it’s becoming a measure of how willing politicians are to pretend they don’t understand basic biology and reality to appease a vocal minority.

Politicians that spout this trans activist nonsense show how feeble minded they are and how little they regard women.

When they tell us who they are we should listen. If he says this mansplaining anti women stuff now when he actually wants the votes of women, how bad will he if he gets more power?

lisa kudrow man GIF by The Comeback HBO

Absolutely right. Analogous to if a man treats his wife like that in public, how the hell does he treat her at home.

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