Mums will always be the default parent (except in a few extenuating circumstances) and to try and change that is a detriment to mums, dads and babies.

[StripesOnADonkey]

Aibu to think that no amount of legislation or social conditioning can change the fact that we are mammals and the mother gets pregnant and gives birth to young, which she then feeds from her body. Mums are the default parent and that is not a bad thing, it’s how it should be.

A dad’s role imo (in the early days mostly) is to support the mum and the family unit together. When the mum is supported, she can be a better mother and she supports the dad back when he needs it. And they both support the children in their own ways. (Obviously if individuals vary from this, as long as everyone is supported and happy then that’s their business, I’m talking societal wise)

I believe if we achieve what some people believe to be the key to equality, ie making parenting equal, this will be detrimental to children and mothers especially.

If mum and dad are 100% equal in parenting (or that is the supposed goal) then why can’t men have equal say in abortion? Or equal say in how mums give birth? Rights to be in the birthing room?

If mum and dad are 100% equal in parenting and are not together on birth, why can’t dad have overnights from day 1? If the goal is for both to be default parent, then why would it be considered cruel to take a newborn from the mother and give to the dad overnight?

If mum and dad are 100% equal in parenting then it’s also up to the dad how baby is fed and if he wants to give baby a bottle of formula even though mum wants to breastfeed, then that is his right.

This imo leads us to be constantly working against our instincts and is part of the reason why the current system we now have is not working (both parents HAVING to go to work and putting their now 9mo in childcare)

Mothers are torn between feeling the desire to be there for their young children and financially being pushed back into work.

However returning to the “traditional” model is not necessarily great for women and leaves a woman so vulnerable financially.

And yes obviously I’m aware that many women WANT to return to work, very soon, but they are not the majority.

This also does not mean that I think we should not take steps to create fairness where possible and strive for equality between men and women. However I do not think that pretending we can equalise the deeply evolved differences in being a mum and being a dad will work. Because it’s inherently different.

How on earth do we begin to solve this?

The only thing I know is that the goal of creating parenting 50/50 is unwise and will never work.

What are your thoughts? What could work that protects female equality and also the wellbeing of children and families as a whole?

Love to hear stories like this. Otherwise men tend to seek 50/50 in order to either spite the mum or avoid cms sadly.

Agree. Unfortunately in our case it was both. The Family Courts are broken.

I feel that. It was a sharp shock for us once our first was born. We thought we could share everything equally and quickly realised that we couldn’t!

i saw my sister go through it ahead of me and it helped me see when it was my turn. We changed how we did things to make sure we were each pulling our weight in the family unit, in our own ways. It’s definitely doable but we are lucky to have a good village around us too, so we weren’t in such a funk and had support.

im sure there are ways to improve things for mums so we can centre things more around the mum and baby dyad. Definitely doesn’t mean dad gets off Scott free! It’s dad’s time to shine as family support!

everyone seems to think i just want to force women to do all the work, so probably I’m not explaining myself well 🤷‍♀️

For sure, it can never be one size fits all, I totally appreciate that, just talking about majority.

doing what’s best for your unique situation will always be best, regardless of what society at large does.

You still haven’t said where you’ve got this mad dads having breastfed newborns overnight thing from. Has a political party suggested it? Is it policy in any country? Dad’s taking a day off when their five year old is vomiting, or arranging a visit to the shoe shop, or making sure PE kit is clean for sports is not a slippery slope to ripping a suckling infant from its mother’s breast…

I haven’t “got it” from anywhere. I’m just pointing out if mums and dads are 100% equal from birth then you should agree that it makes no difference that an infant could be with either mum or dad overnight from birth.

I personally do not think this and I believe mums and babies should not be separated except in extenuating circumstance. I believe dads have a vital role but mother and baby belong together in the early days. As the child grows then yes a father and mother become less different, but ultimately in the vast majority of families mums are the default. They are still different. I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing and I’d like to see society organised around this, allowing women who were default parent to participate in society without having to do everything. There must be a way. Yes dads should pull their weight and family labour should be split fairly. That doesn’t mean everyone does the same thing.

this also doesn’t mean that women who want to work and use childcare shouldn’t either. I’d like to see more options not take things away.

I think men are very used to being centered and having their needs put first. This doesn't work well for pregnancy and childbirth where it has to be all about the pregnant woman. I've seen modern couples try to approach it as a shared experience that they are both equally participating in and it often doesn't go well because this male tendency doesn't work with the reality of the situation.

I wonder if in the past keeping men out of it completely was seen as a solution to the problem of so many men being too selfish to actually be helpful.

The men that do a decent job of assisting their partners with new babies seem to be the ones that have been taught to have realistic expectations rather than told be "equal".

We did share everything pretty equally but I didn't breast feed.

Where things are definitely not equal is the admin and planning ahead. It put me off having a second child tbh, all that "Where do 'WE' keep the nappies?"

I mean it all comes down to men somehow becoming more thoughtful, more flexible and less selfish and it's not in their (short term) interests to be any of those things.

I am not hopeful.

If mum and dad are 100% equal in parenting (or that is the supposed goal) then why can’t men have equal say in abortion?

😳

Abortion has nothing to do with parenting. It’s about bodily autonomy.

What does wanting shared parenting have to do with making women’s bodies, men’s property?

I don’t agree with legislation pushing for shared parenting. I think legislation should be blind in this respect and let parents choose for themselves.

Youre being ridiculous. Comparing responsibilities when the child is poorly at school with overnights as a newborn?

Arguments based on ridiculous ‘data’ have no place in a reasonable world.

My DH and I parent equally
Of other people want to do it differently that is their call,but I am against any structural changes that might lead to women having to stay home
I am not the ‘default parent’ in my house,we did not want that setup and arranged things accordingly
When people post that they are lucky to be able to stay at home,I always feel that I could not imagine anything worse
But each to their own

Basically she’s back tracking and contradicting herself st every turn she’s asking why men can’t have newborns from the day they pop out of their mothers to saying she doesn’t believe in it but if she didn’t she would not be asking why.

I think this goes to show how ultimately, it is really down to the individual couple and what works and is acceptable to one couple won't be the same for the next couple.

I certainly wouldn't have considered it to be supportive if my DH had disappeared to the spare bedroom for a few years and left me to it at night. I'd be furious and resentful.

I believe male and female roles naturally differ in a family unit. I think we need to be careful in that by wanting equality we are not setting ourselves up to ‘do it all’ as seems to be increasingly the case.

Wanting to have a career and equal pay is one thing but when men shrug their shoulders and say ok get on with it but don’t want to take up the traditionally female roles we need to be careful we aren’t going down a slippery slope of additional pressure to work, be a provider, home maker and the primary child carer.

Equality isn’t the same as doing exactly the same, it is sharing roles to your strengths.

@Bryonyberries What's to stop father being the SAHP and mother the full-time sole earner?
Or both working but sharing other things out equally?

Certainly there should be changes to how parental leave is managed and viewed in the UK. It shouldn’t be viewed as detrimental to a career and something to be avoided by either parent. And it should be equal. Some countries do it. And in making it equal it would then (hopefully) take away the stigma from women in the workplace, that while no longer (really) allowed, has never really left.

Shared parental leave, which to most is the best we get here, doesn’t cut it. It means that if the other parent (the man usually) wants to take it, then the woman has to forfeit some of her own. And, that is often not what is wanted, needed (feeding), or fair.

In some countries, as far as I understand, parental leave is not only encouraged but enforced. The father takes a decent and often equal amount of time off.

If we did that then not only would it benefit babies but it would also benefit careers, and may well then lead to more fathers sharing parental duties in the longer term (part time working, taking time off when children are ill, etc etc). At the moment it feels that we have a system in place that not only doesn’t value mothers but doesn’t value families or wellbeing, and ultimately sets women up to take the primary caring role and lose out on (or at least have to fight harder for) a fair career.

Beyond that… I think it’s complicated. Certainly, when my parents divorced my father backed down from wanting to be primary carer as he didn’t want to make me go to court and have to choose. My mother was not the most natural of mothers, and she was an angry and scary person. I suffered. I needed her, I was a child and she was my mother and I could never have stood up and said ‘I don’t want to live with her’, but, looking back - and often at the time - I wish it had been different.

You didn't actually read what I posted did you? This isn't about breastfed vs formula, it's about women not being a martyr to their children and being able to have a full professional and social life outside of the home but only if their partner takes on an equal role in parenting. I get that your kids are still little, but I don't understand why you are trying to make out that because you carried them and gave birth to them you are the only one who can care for them? It's quite Stepford Wives!

You're trying to fix the wrong problem
If we made parenting more equal by giving the second parent (whether that's a man or the other parent in a same sex relationship) parental leave that is use or lose then men are more likely to split the parenting load. As it becomes more common for men to be the primary parent then society will start respecting parenting and SAHP more. Workplaces will be more adaptable for parents etc etc
As long as women are the default it will never be as respected
So encouraging men to be the primary parent is win win
People like me who want to use shared parental leave and split parenting duties and have a great equal parenting relationship with the dad of our child win
And women who want to be a SAHM but get the respected for that decision win

I agree that equal leave would be a game changer
See so many couples who are totally equal and then bang ,Mum on Mat leave, Dad back at work,Mum takes on all house duties and this sets the boundaries going forward

Men just being a recalcitrant malfunctioning woman is simplistic wishful thinking IMH.

OMG have you been talking to my father?! 🤣
He regularly bemoans the fact that women are not at home all the time anymore.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that my instincts have always told me loud and clear that I was never going to be a domestic servant, nor was I going to end up with a useless man who can’t take care of his own child. I knew this from a very young age and was very vocal about it (which is probably why everyone in my family thought I’d never get married and have children).
I think it’s good for children to be able to rely on both parents, not just mum.

What if you have no interest in the “female roles”? Why should an accident of birth force you into them.

I don’t have kids so maybe it’s different but I have never and will be be a domestic servant in my romantic partnerships. Domestic labour is not my strength.

I have 3 DC and I can't relate to having a 'female role' in a family unit. We both work, we both cook, we both clean, we both parent etc it doesn't make a difference what is or isn't between our legs.

If you don’t want to then don’t 🤷‍♀️

I’m not a domestic servant. My husband cooks, we both clean and both work. I work part time so do most of the childcare.

we thought we could do it all 50/50 but I have very difficult pregnancies and breastfed too so the reality of being a mother hit our family pretty hard. I quickly realised how inherently unequal it is.

BUT this just means that dads have to step up in other ways imo.

we both play to our strengths and capabilities