Mums will always be the default parent (except in a few extenuating circumstances) and to try and change that is a detriment to mums, dads and babies.

[StripesOnADonkey]

Aibu to think that no amount of legislation or social conditioning can change the fact that we are mammals and the mother gets pregnant and gives birth to young, which she then feeds from her body. Mums are the default parent and that is not a bad thing, it’s how it should be.

A dad’s role imo (in the early days mostly) is to support the mum and the family unit together. When the mum is supported, she can be a better mother and she supports the dad back when he needs it. And they both support the children in their own ways. (Obviously if individuals vary from this, as long as everyone is supported and happy then that’s their business, I’m talking societal wise)

I believe if we achieve what some people believe to be the key to equality, ie making parenting equal, this will be detrimental to children and mothers especially.

If mum and dad are 100% equal in parenting (or that is the supposed goal) then why can’t men have equal say in abortion? Or equal say in how mums give birth? Rights to be in the birthing room?

If mum and dad are 100% equal in parenting and are not together on birth, why can’t dad have overnights from day 1? If the goal is for both to be default parent, then why would it be considered cruel to take a newborn from the mother and give to the dad overnight?

If mum and dad are 100% equal in parenting then it’s also up to the dad how baby is fed and if he wants to give baby a bottle of formula even though mum wants to breastfeed, then that is his right.

This imo leads us to be constantly working against our instincts and is part of the reason why the current system we now have is not working (both parents HAVING to go to work and putting their now 9mo in childcare)

Mothers are torn between feeling the desire to be there for their young children and financially being pushed back into work.

However returning to the “traditional” model is not necessarily great for women and leaves a woman so vulnerable financially.

And yes obviously I’m aware that many women WANT to return to work, very soon, but they are not the majority.

This also does not mean that I think we should not take steps to create fairness where possible and strive for equality between men and women. However I do not think that pretending we can equalise the deeply evolved differences in being a mum and being a dad will work. Because it’s inherently different.

How on earth do we begin to solve this?

The only thing I know is that the goal of creating parenting 50/50 is unwise and will never work.

What are your thoughts? What could work that protects female equality and also the wellbeing of children and families as a whole?

when a baby is born; it is born of its mothers body: at that very point; it needs its mother.

However as a baby gets older; the mother doesn’t necessarily need to be the default parent.

i was ill when our son was a few months old and spent a month in hospital: we also shared parental leave. My husband is an equal parent who does his equal share of all parenting and house hold tasks: and I’m so glad that this is the fase

Yes, but to what cost to the children? Unless there is a very present father around the children hardly see their parents which is quite sad.

I went back to work part time and DH worked part time to have DD1&2 one or two days a week. As we were both rebuilding our careers after some time away this meant we didn't need childcare initially and then only quite limited periods of time when I felt it worked for the whole family. So my solution is part time working or a four day working week to be the norm for both parents and yes a protected long paid use it or lose it period of paternity leave for men including self employed men which doesn't take away from the mothers leave. I was the default yes due to maternity leave but DH had enough experience of looking after them by himself while I was at work to understand how to share the load, if not perfectly equally, then certainly more equally than most couples I know. For me the solution is to shape society to move away from the men as breadwinners model while women's careers are disproportionately affected because they have to be the flexible ones as men or their employers won't secure that flexibility for fathers.

That’s a great set up that I think a lot of parents could potentially replicate. Definitely needs a societal shift agree.

Some women would like to stay at home. Great if that is what works for them. And great if they can.

Some try to and go a bit loopy. My neighbour did. But she needed to go back to work. She was fine once she did.
Staying at home for her was a nightmare. She loved her young child but she loved her work too. And could not be a good mother without doing her job. She really couldn’t.

We live in a capitalist society. Where often two lots of money are needed to get by. Employers don’t support men only working and wife and children at home. House sellers don’t support it. They make more money by having house prices high. Medical care these days often doesn’t support it.

I do agree that many threads on here are about childcare and the logistical issues of managing it can cause problems.
I also think that some parents put children into childcare too young. But that is often because they have no choice but to do so financially.

I’m literally advocating for the opposite. Most people seem to be understanding my point. 🤷‍♀️

Same. My DH took 8 weeks leave at the birth of our twins. Did every night waking with me, full care around the clock. I then went back to work at 6 months and he took the next 6 months off and provided sole care.

Alongside actually wanting to take the leave to become primary carer for his children, he was lucky enough to have a boss who had done the same for his children and actively encouraged it in his department.

I can see that the mother is necessarily the primary carer once having given birth and is breastfeeding, but I'm still not sure about the term 'default parent'.

Does that mean she has to do everything for the children ad infinitum? All the night waking, every single nappy change, all their meals, buying all their clothes and other necessities, doing all their laundry, buying & wrapping all their birthday and Christmas presents, having to take time off work when they are ill or for medical appointments, organising all school paperwork, teaching them to ride a bike, helping with homework, the constant supervision of young ones, taking them to extra-curricular activities, parties and whatever else, buying school uniform, PE kit and shoes, waiting for hours while they do extra-curricular activities and then rushing home to cook dinner, showing them how to do laces and ties, liaising with relatives, all the school parents evenings and daytime school events, playing games with them, arranging swimming lessons and taking them there and back, reading to them, all bathtimes, taking them for walks or to the playground, cooking with them, teaching young one show to clean their teeth and adolescent boys how to shave. taking them for haircuts, doctor, dentist and optician appointments, building Lego with them, playdates, teaching them manners and right from wrong, showing them how to be kind to pets and how to take care of them.....

Why should all of that be the responsibility of the 'default' parent, ie Mum? Because if men are told that women are the 'default' parent, that's what will happen. In a lot of homes, that's what it is like anyway, and we;ve been trying for decades to change that.

Oh yes, and be expected to hold down a full-time job and contribute 50% to household finances, do all the household chores and be readily available for sex whenever her partner wants it, no matter how bone weary she is.

"If mum and dad are 100% equal in parenting (or that is the supposed goal) then why can’t men have equal say in abortion? Or equal say in how mums give birth? Rights to be in the birthing room?"

That's not relevant to parenting though, is it. That's a woman's control over her own body, healthcare and dignity.

No, maybe that’s where most of the disagreements are from on here.

I see the default parent as the one who is the one you go to first and who usually makes decisions about the child/children.

i do not think this means that women should do all of the work. I think families should divide labour in a way that is fair and plays to peoples strengths.

I think that the reality is in the vast majority of families this is the mum. That doesn’t mean she’s necessarily doing more than her fair share of the work, (although often unfortunately the case!)

My comment was specifically in relation to your comment on abortion, child birth choices and men being in the delivery room. You seem to think we only give women solo rights on this because shes the primary parent, and not because shes a full human being in her own right. Extremely misogynistic of you. Men should NEVER have control over a womans body, equal parent or not.

But if women are being totally honest with themselves...
In a scenario in which one earner is financially doable, how many women would say they would be happy to go back to work ft after mat leave and for husband to look after the baby ft?
I absolutely would have been, but we couldn't afford this option! I would much rather work ft than be a ft mum.

Three men in my circles have been longterm SAHPs, though all with some extra factor -- illness, being a trailing spouse, two redundancies in a row. There's no way I would have contemplated being a SAHP myself, and I'd have been very surprised if DH had. I mean, there's no need for it. Children don't need 24/7 attention from one parent. Having a child is perfectly compatible with having a job.

That’s really good and hopefully will become more and more the norm.

the issue with having dads who never take any leave off to solely care, is that they have no fucking idea what thr day to day is actually like when. You’re on your own, and unless they make a concerted conscious effort to learn about their children, they then don’t know enough to actually be helpful co-parents when they aren’t at work. You then end up with mums who have zero downtime, because the faher can never be left in charge, and ridiculous situations which you read about on here all the time, where fathers can’t be left with their 3, 4, 5+ year olds for a day because they don’t know what to feed them or how to meet their basic needs.

I think the OP needs to distinguish between the phrase “primary carer” and “default parent”. Newborns, the vast majority of the time, have a primary carer. The majority of the time, except in usually (but not always) sad circumstances, this is the woman who gave birth to them. This is a primal thing, related to gestation and feeding. (For an example of where this was not the case, but is not a sad scenario, Jacinda Arden’s autobiography where she talks about having her baby whilst in office and the role her husband took as primary carer is very interesting.)

this is not a reason to have a “default parent” for the rest of their childhood, nor for their mother to be compelled to take a “default parent” role.

Yeah, you do see an awful lot of MN posts basically saying "how can I make my child's father parent in the way I think is right instead of the way he thinks is right, even when I'm not there?". And then almost all the replies will support them in their belief that when all's said and done, they should get the final say. I think most women do actually want to be "main parent" and will resist anything else. They're a bit like a head chef with a sous chef: sous chef is meant to work just as hard if not harder, but not start thinking they're the boss. And anticipate what the boss is going to want, a lot of the time. But not overstep. I can see how some men get to resent it.

Flexible working is much more common these days. I think there was a study showing that even considering working, parents are spending more time than ever with their children compared to past generations.

Where's your data that men in nature don't care for babies? I read that the latest anthropological evidence showed that the elder members of the tribe (old men and women) did the bulk of childrearing as they weren't as fit, and all the young men and women went out hunting. There's even burials of "great hunters" which museums said were male, until we had DNA testing and found they were graves of hunter gatherer women!

It also really wouldn't make sense to have half of the young population (women) rearing kids rather than hunting food when food was so scarce, if you think about it logically

Then all is fine. I was talking about career obsessed parents that wouldn't put their children's needs first. Those who relate more to teachers/baby-sitters than their parents.

Yes, I would have been very happy to do that. We split parental leave so both had experience of it. We could afford for one of us to stay at home, but neither of us wanted to, nor would it have been best for our family.

Thank you!! She so does have the wrong view

You are contradicting yourself at every turn

asking why men can’t have a say in abortion, how a baby is fed or why can’t they have access day 1 but then as soon as your pulled up you say “ you think I’m proposing those things” which is exactly what you were doing. You are saying men should be equal to women and thag they should have more say over a women’s life because of the children. You then say no, no I’m not and back track. Make sense of what your trying to advocate and failing qr before you keep contradicting yourself through each comment you make. One minute your saying you want it to be equal next your saying it shouldn’t be and that your not promoting exactly what you were promoting and then expecting a thread fulll of people to keep up with your nonsense.

What I am saying is that pursuing full 50/50 in all aspects of parenting would likely lead to these damaging consequences for women and children.

it doesn’t mean I think it’s the right choice. I’m literally saying the opposite.

its not my fault you don’t understand my point. I’m just describing what I think is likely to happen if mums and dads have 100% equal responsibilities. Right now mums are default.

if you don’t understand or think I’m talking nonsense then just move along and stop being so rude.

some women hunted, in existing hunter gathering tribes most don’t hunt. But the women still bring food in. It’s still mothers who are nursing and in charge of their babies, even though fathers and family members also have an active role.

we don’t know for sure and likely never will. But we do know women evolved to take care of our young thanks to pregnancy and breastfeeding.

im not saying dads shouldn’t be actively involved and taking on their fair share of household labour.

Assuming the couple are good parents then 50/50 is something to aspire to. If the mum was neglectful, nobody would be advocating 50/50. You’re trying to make a one fits all solution and you must know that’s impossible.

Both parents should have equal responsibility, I can’t think why anyone would disagree with that (again assuming competent parents).

The parents I know from school and general friendship groups definitely have 100% equal responsibility. Some mums do more childcare, some dads do more childcare, but in terms of responsibility both are 100% equal.

Where one parent isn’t able/doesn’t want to parent, then obviously that is a completely different scenario.