Mums will always be the default parent (except in a few extenuating circumstances) and to try and change that is a detriment to mums, dads and babies.

[StripesOnADonkey]

Aibu to think that no amount of legislation or social conditioning can change the fact that we are mammals and the mother gets pregnant and gives birth to young, which she then feeds from her body. Mums are the default parent and that is not a bad thing, it’s how it should be.

A dad’s role imo (in the early days mostly) is to support the mum and the family unit together. When the mum is supported, she can be a better mother and she supports the dad back when he needs it. And they both support the children in their own ways. (Obviously if individuals vary from this, as long as everyone is supported and happy then that’s their business, I’m talking societal wise)

I believe if we achieve what some people believe to be the key to equality, ie making parenting equal, this will be detrimental to children and mothers especially.

If mum and dad are 100% equal in parenting (or that is the supposed goal) then why can’t men have equal say in abortion? Or equal say in how mums give birth? Rights to be in the birthing room?

If mum and dad are 100% equal in parenting and are not together on birth, why can’t dad have overnights from day 1? If the goal is for both to be default parent, then why would it be considered cruel to take a newborn from the mother and give to the dad overnight?

If mum and dad are 100% equal in parenting then it’s also up to the dad how baby is fed and if he wants to give baby a bottle of formula even though mum wants to breastfeed, then that is his right.

This imo leads us to be constantly working against our instincts and is part of the reason why the current system we now have is not working (both parents HAVING to go to work and putting their now 9mo in childcare)

Mothers are torn between feeling the desire to be there for their young children and financially being pushed back into work.

However returning to the “traditional” model is not necessarily great for women and leaves a woman so vulnerable financially.

And yes obviously I’m aware that many women WANT to return to work, very soon, but they are not the majority.

This also does not mean that I think we should not take steps to create fairness where possible and strive for equality between men and women. However I do not think that pretending we can equalise the deeply evolved differences in being a mum and being a dad will work. Because it’s inherently different.

How on earth do we begin to solve this?

The only thing I know is that the goal of creating parenting 50/50 is unwise and will never work.

What are your thoughts? What could work that protects female equality and also the wellbeing of children and families as a whole?

so if you and husband were separated, you would have been fine to split nights 50/50 at his house without you?

im sure we as a society can think of a way. Saying to women if you want to have kids you have to become unequal to your husband financially is part of why so many are not having children/why everyone is all up in arms about falling birth rates.

well no, I’d rather women weren’t forced to leave young babies when they don’t want to. Is that a bad thing?

I think it’s a really complicated picture, and I don’t know what the answer is or if there is one answer. I have a 2 year old and a 6 month old, I am definitely the default parent in my house (although my husband is amazing, definitely not complaining) and I would say that’s down to mainly

1. I breastfed, am still breastfeeding my second baby, so from day 1 really the feeding & bulk of the care was mine because as brilliant as my husband is he doesn’t have the ability to do this
2. My husband only got 2 weeks of paternity leave, so really from that point on I would have been forced to be default anyway
3. My husband earns 3x what I do, so it made sense for me to be the one who reduced my hours

In contrast though I have a friend who had her baby the same time I had my second and she didn’t breastfeed so the feeding & nights were shared from day 1, her partner got 6 months fully paid paternity leave and then 3 months half pay paternity leave, which is actually the same as she got so they have both had the same time- no default parent needed there, and they both earn the same so neither is going part time.

It’s different set ups for different people. I would love to see more employer’s doing better paternity leave though as I do think 2 weeks enforces the default parent very quickly and in practice once mum has spent 9 months on maternity leave doing everything it is quite hard to shift that balance back the other way down the line.

Your first paragraph makes zero sense and you’re contradicting yourself.

obviously if a baby is breast fed a father cannot have overnight stays……. but that doesn’t mean the mother has to be the default parent for absolutely everything and continue to be so after the baby years.

you’re being ridiculous now.

God yes I would have been absolutely happy for him to split nights with me if we were separated. I needed the sleep.

You’re assuming these relationships are fixed from the start, but things change.

At first mum is the default parent as she carries, births and feeds the baby with breast of bottle. That bond with the mother is the most important in the babies natural development. Dad cares for mum, and older children, during this time, sure. That’s why we have maternity leave.

By the time the baby is a toddler there’s really nothing mum can do that dad can’t (except if still breastfeeding but this isn’t keeping child alive at this point).

I think one of the issues here is that a pattern forms while mum is off work that she is the primary carer, and then persists when she goes back to work. So she’s working like dad but also does lion’s share of parenting, which is obviously unfair and exhausting, and not great for the kids.

You ask what can be done. As well as statutory maternity pay you could actually live off and pension contributions for mat leave, I would like to see a cultural shift towards flexible working arrangements for men. Dad should be able to leave early and get the kids, make up time in the evening, or job share, or work part time. I know technically they can do this but mostly they don’t.

keeping Mothers and babies together is not about bodily autonomy? If parents are separated the courts would never grant overnight stays to a dad with a newborn without the mother agreeing it. Because the mum is the default.

do you think dads should be granted overnights from birth without mum’s agreement? Because many dads ask for this on here.

how is that misogynistic? To be FOR mums and Babies being together. I’m a feminist and I think maybe you’re making assumptions about my post.

How would that work if the mother has to earn a living? Is she the one who always has to arrange her career around childcare, appointments, sitting up all night with a sick kid and then having to work a full day, etc etc?

There are far too many men who think that looking after their own children is something to be avoided because it's 'wifework'. I'm including fathers who live with the family, not just absent ones.

I agree with this, only problem being when couples have multiple children the years when mum is very much in demand can really stretch out.

I don’t know what the answer is. I think many women don’t want to be the default parent after experiencing such freedom and independence beforehand. Some women really want to be that default parent and others don’t. And to those women, i would really not recommend having kids in the first place as it is not worth it.

Agree with others though that current differences in maternity and paternity rights set a precedent. My DH also only got 2 weeks off for my 2 kids. His company has since changed it to 6. But it’s still not enough.

Okay well I’m not sure how to make it clearer. It doesn’t contradict itself?

I don’t think i said that a woman HAS to be. Only that they are in most cases.

how am I being ridiculous?

Okay but not all women would be 🤷‍♀️ especially if enforced to by law.

True and that’s actually one of the reasons my kids have larger age gaps. I wanted to get back to work and re-establish myself in between. I guess the issue is we have to be deliberate about intentionally making patenting as equal as we can. If you sit back and let things just happen, the precedents from maternity leave will persist into a woman’s working life. Society supports this set up. There’s so many more mums than dads at the school gates.

I agree re longer paternity leave. The fact is though, for any of this to work you need to be with a man who wants to parent in this way. My DH is generally a good man, but I still find myself resenting that being an equal parent seems like something he can opt into. The buck really stops with me.

I don’t know what to do about that.

No it's not a bad thing at all. If the mother wants to be a sahp but if they make that choice then they become the default parent by choice

@PluckedFromThinAir Paternity leave is difficult for smaller employers and you forget many small businesses are owned and run by men. They don’t make huge profits and the owners work long hours to keep the ship afloat in these difficult times. Making life more difficult for business risks unemployment. The self employed don’t get paternity leave! That’s a lot of men. A realistic economic view is needed.

It will mean employees who are not parents will be expected to cover even more.

I think it’s expected that mothers play a more central role during pregnancy (obviously as it’s their body) and during the newborn months, and dads should do what they are practically able to. That makes sense and is accepted by most people. Eg. The mother doing more of the night feeds if the baby is breastfeeding. That’s just the biological reality. My DH was very supportive and hands-on when our dc were babies. He was working full-time to provide for us so he needed a decent night’s sleep, whereas I was at home with our newborn during the day so I did most of the night wakings as he needed to breastfeed and I could catch up on sleep during the day when the baby was sleeping. DH did do a couple of night wakings though, and wouldn’t wake me if baby didn’t need fed. He’d settle him back to sleep. He also took the baby for a couple of hours every day when he got home from work so I could have a couple of hours nap. What else can you really expect at that stage? I don’t think that’s what women are complaining about when they say dads aren’t pulling their weight.
What I think women are rightly sick and tired of is dads not stepping up and doing their fair share. Fair doesn’t mean exactly equal though - it means what is fair. Eg. The dad should have equal caring responsibilities at the weekend, he should be changing nappies and knowing what the baby’s routine is, knowing how to care for them, and caring for them when he is practically able to. If the mum went back to working full-time when the baby was 2 weeks old and both parents were working FT that’d be a different story and in that situation both parents should be sharing the caring responsibilities 50/50. However if one partner is not working it should be split in a way that means neither parent is permanently exhausted and stressed.

Also, I think the vast majority of mums want to be, and like being the default parent. It’s hardwired into mothers (not all women, but women who become mothers) to be the nurturing parent. I think if that was taken away most mothers wouldn’t like it

Interesting, as that is not my experience.

Every single one of my friends with young kids, including myself, are absolutely knackered wish our partners would take on more in terms of the mental load with the kids.

You’re conflating too many issues – parental equality, parental leave policy, quality of childcare, financial practicalities.

It becomes a pointless discussion when you’re chasing all these issues around circularly.

No, full time childcare likely isn’t best for 1-2yr olds – nor is a family in financial struggle due to needing two incomes.

Yes, it’s disproportionate work for a woman to work PT and be primary parent – but most men will not consider PT and most employers are less likely to approve flexible work request from men in male-led industries.

Yes, family care (such as grandparents) has been shown to be better than nursery for under 2s, yet that puts unpaid labour pressure on older women.

Yes, mother staying home FT with children is probably the must high quality care practice a child can be given – yet we know from practice that often leads to disengaged fathers and marital disconnect. It’s also only an option for the highest income families in the country, unless family are entitled to benefits, which is to increase is a drain on the economy.

The over-arching problems are:

Men, as a whole, are not engaged with childrearing – this will always, ALWAYS be detrimental to the child and its mother.

Employers, as a whole, do not incentivise or support men who want/need to work flexibly for childrearing. Also detrimental to child and mother.

Childcare is too expensive – a big part of this is because the UK will not lower its legal ratios as European countries have done to reduce childcare expense. Detrimental to family income and puts unequal pressure on women’s choice – also bad for child and mother.

Women being absent from the workforce is a huge problem for the economy and sex equality, which exacerbates all the above issues.

We, personally, have a beautiful set up, but that’s only due to very rare circumstances – My DH took 6 months parental leave because it was incentivised in his work place AND he wanted to actively childrear.

My mother cared for ours 2x a week rather than FT nursery, but my mother happened to be a childcare practitioner who had retired early at 55 due to fortunate financial position.

DH and I are both high earners which means we’ve never had problems with childcare fees or paying a nanny for higher quality care. We outsource cleaners and gardeners so we don’t have as high housework pressures.

ALL of this, as above, is down to money and having a present and interested father.

I think the term default parent is unclear. From your post, I think you mean the one the kids default to. There is also the element of the parent to whom others and admin work defaults to. I think most women would like to share that element more. And, personally, I love that my daughter has such a strong bond with her dad that the nurturing default parent is split fairly evenly between us now she's a bit older (3).

PP makes interesting points.

I think childcare from grandparents will decline as well just because people are having kids older and we are having to work longer.

I had DC1 at 32 and our parents were still working at the time.

i agree with all these points and to add a slightly different experience but also a scenario where I believe we don’t have a default parent. Our child is 1. We are a two mum family.

my DP works in a place that gave 12 weeks “paternity leave” on full then half pay, and also incentivised shared parental leave on full then half pay. She took it all.

when the baby was born, I had a partner with me for 12 weeks. While I got to grips with breastfeeding, which was completely hellish for the first 3 months due to tongue tie and supply issues, my partner did all the housework, cooking, dog care. She did 75% of the nappy changes. I did the night wakes, she did the early mornings to give me a couple of hours of unbroken sleep. In the six weeks following my c section she drove us to all our appointments and feeding support groups. When she went back to work I had properly recovered and a manageable routine had taken shape.

my mat pay ran out at 9 months, so she took her 12 weeks paid shared leave at that point while I went back to work. The baby lost interest in breastfeeding at 10 months so I decided to stop at that point. This time off alone with the baby built her confidence in parenting him - managing appointments, playing, feeding with now solid food, organising everything she needed to take him on an outing. She really learnt the mental load involved in the day to day. Her opinion at the end of it was that all dads/non-birth parents should have this time to learn this, as it would go a long way to stopping the default parent thing.

we both agree that the extra parental leave should be on top of the years maternity leave, not instead of.

every two mum family we know has taken this approach, and I do believe it’s because men just are not expected to pull their weight in the domestic sphere, and the majority do not want to either. If men as a collective wanted this kind of leave as standard they could organise and win it. I know of one mum/dad family who split leave the way we did - they have a much more equal parenting dynamic than any other mum/dad family i know.

I know of several couples where the dad could have taken extra paid leave but actually chose not to. I think this is bizzare.

equal parenting load does not mean splitting every task in half. In the early stages it’s looking at the load AS A WHOLE and splitting it fairly. If the mum is breastfeeding, the non-breastfeeding parent takes on a different task in its entirety to balance that.

so the answer for households where both adults have to work outside the home is - more paid parental leave, some of which is ring fenced for the father/non-birth mum, and a huge cultural attitude shift, where dads are expected and made to feel that day to day parenting stuff is their equal responsibility.

You seem to be advocating for something that is pointless. I don’t want a man telling i have to keep a pregnancy if I don’t want to. I don’t want a man demanding I have to breast feed when I will bottle feed… you’ve either badly written this or you’re bonkers. I want to be the default parent and I don’t care that dad does 40% and I do 60% or if I do 90% and he does 20% it was my decision to have a child so it is my responsibility to raise said child. Your not making any sense because yes it does read as though you want men to force a woman into giving birth if she doesn’t want to have a baby hanging off her boob if she doesn’t want to it read as though you dont care about women

We did similar and it has had such a massive impact. My work can tend to drop travel on me last minute. I have no worries about leaving dad with her, he knows her routine, he's default for nursery calls and they actually respect that, he knows her likes/ dislikes etc. I don't have to prep outfits, food, give him instructions or worry at all.