To ask how to cope with a kid who is just so irritating?

[roamfarandwide]

I feel horrible saying this but I am on my last nerve with my five year old. I find him so irritating and I’m sure he must sense it and it must impact his self esteem.

Constant talking. A lot of it makes virtually no sense - I’m sure it does to him but it’s this stream of consciousness that is hard to decipher … he was wittering about these ‘three tigers and if they said no then they’d be there but if they didn’t then they would wouldn’t they mummy …’ and it’s almost always when I’m trying to get everybody ready or dealing with something else and I just don’t have the time to stand there and ask leading questions to work out what he’s on about. I was trying to leave for work the other day and he was just stood there wittering about something … horrible I know.

The noise, my god. So loud. Yes of course I’ve asked him nicely to make less noise. Sometimes he does for seconds later it to start again. He was playing some game this morning involving throwing a large monster truck around in the room with wooden floors and all I can hear is crash bang crash … just so wearing.

Stupid behaviour … nearly had to take him home from a party last week for throwing ketchup around.

Winding sibling up and making her scream. Messy and leaving things lying around.

I do work on it. I really try hard to address the behaviours. But the problem is I’m constantly on at him, I mean all the time. (and doing the ‘tell him what he should be doing’ doesn’t work - he often needs telling really firmly and sharply to knock it off.)

I feel horrible.

My son is a bit older, has adhd and does the wittering thing, but some of his friends without ADHD are like this too so I'm not sure it is a 100% diagnostic tool!

I would calmly, at a time that no one is snappy or rushed, teach him that when we're having a conversation we also need to ask the other person questions about things that they are interested in. Teach this with no criticism - just a factual thing in the same way you teach how to ride a bike. Then each time after 5/10 minutes of uninterrupted wittering start saying "I think that you might have forgotten to ask me a question in this conversation". I also say "are you talking with me or at me?" when it goes on too long.

In your example with trying to leave the house, I think that kids with these traits are often poor at timekeeping so I would have been quite blunt. "Right, we're all going to stop talking because mum needs to go to work and Fred needs to go and tidy his room. Bye darling, love you"

The only doing things when you really get cross is helped by replacing the crossness with urgency. "Can you get that truck upstairs on the soft carpet before my 10 second counter gets to zero? 10, 9, 8 etc" works for kids like this.

If you find a solution to the noise I would love to hear it - still working on that in this house!

@Meadowfinch @roamfarandwide Meadow Finch’s advice is good OP. I have a monologuer who now 19 and on his way back from Uni as I write. He’s super smart and so so’s your lad from the sound of it!

@roamfarandwide have you thought that it might be because you have too much on and need more help? Just a thought 😀

He does just sound like a typical 5 year old, but you can't always fight your own nervous system when you feel on edge even when you know you aren't having the desired outcome with your responses.

I think you need tools to help you stay regulated so that you can redirect him in a calm manner.

We use some of these, and they help with high energy DS (who is autistic, but we have used them since before diagnosis).

When it is time to be quiet, I put on my headphones as a visual cue that my ears aren't working right now, and I put on my "social battery" pin which has a green smiley face and a red sad face and slide the pin to red. When DS is making a lot of noise in these quiet times, I get his attention, I point to the red face and I make the sh gesture. It can get repetitive, but so can telling him off and this way keeps us both calm with no voices raised and no self esteem. I actually learned this one from my own primary school teacher who used a similar red card green card method to get the whole class on board.

We have a plain white clock, the cheap ones from pound land and have coloured blocks out so when it is between certain hours, the colours mean play time, bed time, quiet time and meal times.

Kids need space to crash and tumble. If you have wooden floors you need to make a crash mat area somehow. He can't stop the behaviour yet anymore than you can't stop it grating you, so you need a compromise as an area you can redirect his behaviour. Add in one of those seated floor spinners for noise free spinning and contained chaos.

For kids that like to get into mischief by exploring with their hands, having immediate access to fidget toys is a game changer. We have a basket that is always out and available of different fidgets that meet different sensory needs. Needohs, poppets, articulated snakes, even empty water guns and spinners.

You won't change this overnight but I do think it can help to see this as 2 issues, an energetic 5 year old and your own dysregulated nervous system.

I think you are right not to assume ADHD. Yes some kids have it, but some kids are just high energy and curious and will grow out of these behaviours. I think the rush to diagnose is unhelpful and sometimes we are pathologising normal child behaviour. That said, even for high energy neurotypical children, some of the parenting techniques that work for ADHD kids can be helpful. So worth looking them up to see if you can incorporate those techniques into your general parenting.

Re: worrying you are always on at him, I think it is a common thing parents can fall into. It’s easy to fall into when children are growing and learning and need a lot of guidance and correction. One thing that can help is making sure you praise for the times he is doing well so it’s not constant negativity. So when he is playing quietly for a bit, say well done. When he sits quietly by the pool while his sibling is swimming, praise him afterwards. If there is a day he doesn’t bombard you with questions as you are trying to leave, thank him for being helpful. That sort of thing.

I agree, turn taking, and listening are a huge issue, missing social cues when the other person has had enough etc, because they're so engrossed. I also agree about prompting. We tend to say, "dc that conversation is a little intense for right now, but we can talk about it more tomorrow.
The timer thing doesn't work for us unfortunately, as it sets off a boat load of anxiety, and "I hate timers!!" Unfortunately this means I am constantly prompting and the equivalent of a human timer. 😔

I would say the most important thing ,especially at times you are eg trying to get out the door to school, is for you to keep calm- he will be picking up on your anxiety/ stress.
I don’t think this is easy or always possible but keeping that in mind when he’s at his worst could help

Op I have every sympathy with you and I am probably going to attract some criticism posting this, but having raised two dc, one of whom was challenging, I would say that the fact that your ds felt comfortable throwing ketchup around in a stranger’s house, before you stopped him doing it, is indicative that:

~either he isn’t used to having to comply with simple age appropriate boundaries

-he is one of those enormously energetic children who need shed loads of exercise every day before interaction with others otherwise he gets completely overwhelmed and excited

-or he may be struggling with ADHD or something similar?

Or a combination of the above!

Whichever it is in your shoes I would be tackling this with with different approaches all at once:

~start upping his physical exercise daily taking him swimming, buying him a bike, signing him up for minis football? Or karate, or whatever it takes!

-start trying to redirect or funnel his behaviour in to something instructive or constructive eg get him a spade, a big bag of compost, a mini wheel barrow and ask him to dig a hole or build a flower bed. Or put books in to a tethered book case. Or give him some actual simple jobs like washing windows he can reach. Four year olds at my DD’s riding school used to be able to feed the mini Shetlands, pick up poop, lead horses, brush them and tack them up - all under careful supervision of course - but my point is that five year olds can do more than you think, and quite complicated things too, given clear boundaries. Some children need to be constantly challenged with things slightly above their immediate ability. If he is throwing trucks around that tells you immediately that he needs something more constructive to do!

-start imposing some quiet time in to your daily routine so he he gets to know that say after school he can babble away, but then after tea needs to do a quieter activity while you do other things nearby. It’s about getting used to entertaining himself for short periods of time. Start with five minutes and build up. Reward at the end.

Every child needs to learn this skill and not saying you are doing this op but some parents tend to switch between full on attention to screens and forget about “playing by yourself” in the middle which is a vital skill for school.

-take him to the doctor and have a wee chat about how much sleep, how much physical activity is average this age. Tell them about your struggles and that way it’s on record early on, should you be seeking an assessment later on.

-out-sourcing? Can you afford an active baby sitter to take him out for a couple of hours one weekend morning or afternoon? Then at least you can have one predictable period of time per week when you know you can get relief from his constant noise and activity, and something to look forward to.

And fwiw, sorry but maybe think about imposing behaviour boundaries more strictly? You may find he is happier this way when things are clearer? He may stop testing you?

If my dd had thrown ketchup around at a stranger’s house then they would have been removed and taken straight home. No hesitation. And it would have been explained later on when she was calm that she would not be attending any parties if she couldn’t demonstrate that she knew how to behave properly in someone else’s home,

And the next day they would have been marched to their friend’s door with a bunch of flowers and a picture they had drawn with the word “sorry” written on it. No hesitation.

Maybe others think that’s harsh but is it possible you are speaking to him too nicely all of the time op? If asking him nicely to stop the noise isn’t working then you are allowed to stop what you are doing, look him in the eye, get down to his level and tell him very firmly to stop once. Use a low voice and body language to indicate disapproval. Then there needs be a consequence if he doesn’t such as a naughty step or something removed or whatever you have chosen. I think speaking to him very firmly and clearly once is worth a hundred of saying no constantly and too nicely! It just becomes a meaningless noise then. Choose your battles.

~as a pp has said, use humour where you can to help him make choices. Do you want to eat your toast like a bear or a rabbit?

Good luck op. He sounds like a fantastic little boy with great energy and imagination, and I can’t imagine how exhausted you must be, but it needs steering and directing eg if he keeps wittering on about the tigers, then again get down to his level and ask him to paint or draw the tigers, or model some with play dough, so you can understand more clearly? That way he feels heard but he is also occupied? Maybe?

Best of luck 🌺

Tbh, she sounds autistic. If her son is ND, she probably is too.

I'm auhd and before I was diagnosed I was so intolerant to noises and sounds ( I still am now tbh I've just learnt how to help myself )

Her son us probably a verbal processor.... my daughter is the same and she talks at me, not to me. It is exhausting.

It's difficult at that age, they have such poor impulse control and they get bored so easily

Before I knew we were all ND ( only diagnosed in the last few years ) we used to play the "quiet game" and whoever was the quietest for the longest got a prize 😅

This is like a parody. If the boy doesn't have ADHD then the OP must be autistic.

It sounds like he's really trying to get your (positive ( attention.

@roamfarandwide I have a young DS who’s a monologuer and it’s definitely a work in progress to get a break from the constant info-dumps.

We have an extra layer of thick jigsaw foam floor tile things in his room so he can crash about up there. They are cheap and easy to install / remove once he’s figured out volume control.

I also found Carla Naumburg’s book ‘How to Stop Losing Your Shit with Your Kids’ very helpful, it lives on my bedside table for regular reference!

He sounds like he has ADHD.
I suggest you do some peaceful parenting training. Your child is just being himself, he is not trying to piss you off. You chose to get pissed off. Once you approach him with kindness and compassion instead of irritation, he’ll no longer piss you off. I too have a child with ADHD and talking from experience. I’m really glad I did peaceful parenting training, lots of learning and realisations. No kid can piss me off anymore. No adult either. Some irritation, perhaps. But once you realise that most people are just doing their thing and it’s your choice how to RESPOND (not react!) to it, it’s a superpower!
Your little boy sounds adorable, great imagination, and all he wants is your love! I’d advise against leading questions! Ask open questions! Say nice and kind things to him. ‘Oh, that sounds interesting!’ ‘What’s the tiger called?’ You don’t have time to follow the whole story, I get that, but just show interest and love.
With behaviour, you have to lead by example and show him how to do things. If he does something the wrong way, assume he doesn’t know the right way and show it to him and tell him patiently. Don’t assume that he will remember it straight away. Some things you will need to show several times. Just say ‘do you remember, we did it like this before…’ If he does something ‘wrong’, he’s not doing it to piss you off. He might want your attention, and if he doesn’t get your attention when he behaves well, he’ll try to get it with unapproved behaviour. Negative attention is better than no attention. It’s your job to reward positive behaviour. I always reward positive behaviour and disregard negative behaviour or use it as a learning opportunity. Most of the time it’s the latter. Kids can also be tired, hungry, fed up, overwhelmed, sad, happy, excited, and they don’t have the emotional maturity or language how to express their feelings. It might just come across that they are playing up. Always communicate with your child and spend 10-15 minutes mum-child time together individually with each child every day, doing an activity they want to do. This is probably the most important thing to build a good, solid relationship. The second most important thing is that if you lose it or shout (hopefully not too often once you apply the above principles…) say Sorry! to your child! This models the right behaviour; we all mess up but it’s important to be responsible and kind, and apologise if we did something wrong. ‘I’m sorry I shouted at you when I felt overwhelmed/angry/upset’ is a good one. You don’t need to apologise for how you feel, all feelings are okay and valid. But shouting at someone when you are angry is not ok. The feeling is okay, the behaviour was wrong, so apologise for it. The right behaviour would be: ‘Johnny, I’ve a bit too much on right now, and I can’t give you the attention I want to. Can we please discuss this after dinner?’ 2 sentences, you prevent a bad evening and hurt feelings/meltdowns/you feeling like a bad mum.
You clearly care about your boy and love him, otherwise you would not posted. You can do this, I hope this helps, DM me if you need anything else, I’m happy to help! We are all learning, our children are our greatest teachers. From a mum who used to shout, but chose connection instead 💛

Does he have a father? I can’t see you mentioning one.
He sounds like a bright, active and creative boy. Also sounds like he his seeking high levels of connection from you. Does he get any 1:1 parent time? Did the increase in behaviour correlate with a new sibling?

id try and put more structure and boundaries in place. Get a visual timetable. Put in quiet periods with clear expectations, starting small and then building- Jamie this is quiet time for 5 minutes. I want to to play quietly. I’m going to clean the dishes. I will come and check on you in 2 minutes. Set a timer. Come back with lots of praise. Make it achievable. Maybe start with 1 minute.

Him covering the reception class with ketchup would be a problem. Him chatting away to you, even quite long and involved conversations, shouldn't be a problem to you. It does sound like everything he does annoys you like you have got the 'ick' about your own child.

DS2 was like this and it was a real shock after shy, quiet DS1. It was very wearing.

Then he left home at 19, he's now 27 and we rarely hear from him. His long term GF gets it all now. Whereas DS1 has blossomed and phones me every week for an hour long phone call. Plus numerous Whatsapp messages about anything under the son.

I really miss DS2's chatter!

My nephew (7) was like this until recently. No adhd. He luckily will take himself to the sofa to read but when he’s lively and asking questions it’s intense. He’s got much better recently though (8 in June).

Do some reading around ADHD, PDA etc so you get some strategies to handle this behaviour.

It’s really hard when our children are difficult. When we were growing up this behaviour was sternly reprimanded or discouraged with smacks, it certainly made parents’ lives easier and I often think one of the downsides of parenting having become more empathetic is exactly what you describe - frustration and guilt when your child won’t behave and there’s no tool now available for you to address it with. Hang in there and hopefully some of the support sites will help.

Your son though sounds similar to my nephew, bright, clever and with a good imagination. The tigers example was quite clever I thought! Shows reasoning and what if. Edward de Bono had books on this, dog exercising machine, which he might like.

It’s the dog exercising machine book. For age 4 upwards.

My DD (almost 5, also in reception) talks from the moment she opens her eyes in the morning to the moment she goes to sleep at night. She also has bucket loads of energy and is constantly hanging of furniture/trees yelling 'Mummy look at me!!'. She honestly never stops, but I think it's quite normal for kids that age?!

I do have to check myself for getting visibly exasperated with her sometimes (I'm a quiet person) and admittedly have learned to tune some of it out and just make 'mm' noises. We have music on a lot of the time so we will dance and sing together if I'm busy which keeps her happy and is preferable to the constant chatter.

I do all the things like trying to keep my no's to a minimum, trying not to expect too much of her when she's tired/hungry. We have a reward system in place that at the moment is generally focused on listening first time. Outside as much as possible, minimal screens.

When I'm not wrung out from work and life, I can really appreciate how awesome she is though- she is endlessly imaginative, creative, playful and curious about the world like a little kid should be. Some of her friends seem to be completely lacking this and are just obsessed with TV which I think is sad. School is also a tricky place to be for these types of kids - lots of sitting and paying attention when their little bodies just want to be on the go and exploring so I feel like it all gushes out at home.

Hang in there OP!!

OP I'm not sure if this has already been suggested but I've been javing very similar issues with my DS and these two things over the last few days have been a gamechanger.

So, remembering, when they kick off or are kicking off - we need to be their calm. Don't match their energy. The screaming / shouting or whatever - keep repeating in your head 'I am their calm'. Hard when you're hearing another tantrum or argument with the siblings but you adding to the shouting won't help.

The other thing that is working AMAZINGLY is - when they do something wrong - give an active consequence. I.e. Instead of saying I'm taking your toys away or you need to sit on the naughty step or no ice cream later, say something like: "you've hit your sibling and we don't hit in this house. The consequence is you need to clean the windows. You have 5 minutes to clean the windows. If you don't clean the windows in 5 minutes there will be no TV for the rest of the day". Then set a timer and leave them to it. If they're not doing it give a reminder (but almost to yourself) "only one minute left to clean the windows." If they do it great - they're now away from sibling / on another activity and the 'punishment' is done. If they don't - turn the TV off - and keep if off.

The above is honestly working so well. I feel like this weekend has been a dream (solo parenting!). Would definitely recommend give it a try.

My daughter’s nearly 5 and similar behaviours. Always asking questions when I’m in the middle of something. I wouldn’t worry too much about ADHD unless people in real life think he’s got it don’t listen on here as they don’t know your child. I would advise just focus on one thing at a time for example the messiness. Positive reinforcement for tidying up, making it a game, discuss why being clean and tidy is important. Read a book about tidying up. So focus on that and then once that’s sorted move to the next problem.

He’s five. Just try and enjoy his childhood. They are small for a very short time.

Bless you, you can't help the way you feel. Beating yourself up into a frenzy of guilt won't help.

My DS was like this and honestly, it was exhausting although I love him to bits.

Start by offering yourself compassion - you care about being a good mum or you wouldn't be here asking for help. Have you watched any Brenee Brown videos on self compassion? Doing this and becoming aware of my own emotions before they exploded really helped me. Try to give yourself 5 minutes locked in the loo just to decompress and feel your feelings now and again.

I realised I was stuck in a trap of feeling like I had to be really polite to this child who was not being polite to me - i felt like if someone is speaking I must always listen with all my attention. Well - no, not if I'm in the middle of something else and I've already acknowledged him. If you are currently trying really hard to give him your full attention all the time you will get exhausted and snappy. Get used to going about your jobs while making 'mmm, huh, yes' etc noises so he's getting some acknowledgement but you're not feeling under pressure to let him set the agenda all the time.

Sometimes kids and parents have aspects of their personalities which clash. There's a really good book, I think its called 'raising your spirited child' which talks about this. Its ok to find some things your kid does just plain annoying - but you need to work out a way to deal with it without him feeling rejected and you feeling terrible.

Just berating yourself to be better /more tolerant won't work, you need strategies. All the best x

The book 10 Days to a Less Defiant Child (Bernstein) has some good tips on ways to see your child more positively.