AIBU to think a junior probationer’s month abroad request is unreasonable?

[estrogone]

We have a junior in our office who’s only been with us about three months and is still on probation, where the expectation is mostly office-based work. They briefly mentioned in passing at one point that they might travel overseas, but there was never any proper discussion or approval before the trip was booked.

They’ve now come back and advised the trip is already booked and confirmed for nearly a month overseas, in a time zone 10 hours away. They proposed a range of adjusted working arrangements, including shortened hours and overnight work, so they can continue working remotely while away.

I haven’t approved the shortened hours or alternative arrangements and have asked them to demonstrate how they realistically intend to maintain service levels and cope with working nights while effectively on holiday overseas.

I am a lot WTAF to four weeks of leave for someone who has only been with the business a matter of months and is still in probation.

AIBU to think this is request is out of order?

Yes, I suspect you are right.

Most places seek to recruit on local contracts as far as possible now, with special expat contacts being for the kind of senior or specialist employee who has to be recruited internationally - and even then it's more about paying relocation expenses and retaining potentially more favourable annual leave, sick leave conditions written into their contract in line with country of origin (so someone relocating from the UK or EU retaining 24/30 days paid annual leave and more generous sick leave when moving to work in the US or something).

Few people get to WFH in different time zones unless doing so is actually required for the role - business travel, not going to see your boyfriend/ girlfriend or even parents outside normal annual leave.

If they had applied for leave before booking the trip would you have allowed them to take accrued leave plus the remainder unpaid?

Whatever you would have done then is what you should do now.

It sends a totally wrong message to more established staff to make a different decision just because the employee has been reckless.

I would call them in the morning and have a proper discussion about how this is not acceptable and give them the option to cancel or take unpaid leave and if they have a attitude just terminate their contract.

it is crazy that people think this is ok but also doesn’t surprise me.

of course they can’t work nights if out in the day (beyond a couple of hours).

You obviously can’t facilitate the remote working, so I think you have 2 options.

1. tell them if they go they’ll fail their probation and won’t have a job to come back to.
2. tell them the leave has to be unpaid.

The option I chose would depend on how good they were. If they were fantastic and already almost irreplaceable, then I’d be inclined to offer them option 2. If not, then it’s option 1 without question.

For further context, I just put this situation to my 18 year olds as a neutral hypothetical question.

They said that the person asking for the leave was a CF and knew exactly what they were doing i.e. “easier to get forgiveness than permission”.

I like that they didn’t lie. They could have easily made up a family issue

This poster expressed it well.

The employee is indeed a ‘FN’

Some years ago an assistant was appointed to a full-time post in my team. By the end of the first week they asked to go part-time. If the team had needed less hours a part-time role would have been advertised.

25 is not a sheltered 17 year old who's never seen the outside of their home. 25 is a grown adult with at least marginal awareness of decisions having consequences.

Is your business a 'work anywhere' business (most aren't)? If not, say no. You are not a work anywhere business and they are in a client facing role. The business rules are that you may not take more holiday leave than you have accrued and any leave should be agreed in advance with your line manager. Surely this is standard in all employment contracts?

On the practical side:

• Do they have the legal right to work in the country in which they will be visiting?
• Do you work in a heavily regulated area? If so, you need to consider cross border data and security issues.
• If they have the power to negotiate or agree contracts (not sure what their role is? I was negotiating contracts at that age), it may trigger a local corporate tax presence for the company
• generally, double tax treaties mean they won't be charged tax in both the UK and overseas, but the company may still be required to file a short term business visitor report

Basically, it's a lot of red tape so a thoughtless, still-in-probation junior can go on a jolly, where you know they won't even work a tenth of the hours you're paying them for.

Edit - apologies, I should have read all your replies before posting. I was just so flabbergasted at the balls on this person that I posted too soon! I see you're in Oz, but presumably would have similar tax issues to a UK employer considering the same. I think you've made the right choice that, ultimately, it's not a good fit and you're going to have to train someone else.

I’ve not read the full thread, but do they have a visa to work there, and do you know this is likely to create a tax obligation for your company in the country where they are working (most countries like to tax any income related to work carried out in their country). There are also data implications if client data is being taken out of the country.

To me this is a terrible idea before you even factor in whether the employee can keep up the same level of service or not.

If you agree to this it would seem like the thin end of a very big wedge. How about other members of staff observing this? Could you end up with everyone working skin a different time zone

I am tempted to hard arse it, but they are 25 and would lose thousands

And??

If they were worth "thousands" for 12 days of work (the difference between the 5 they've accrued and the 17 they need) then you'd hope they had the sense to realise this won't work, but since they clearly don't you're best off getting rid now

Yes it'll be an issue to recruit and train someone else, but nothing like the issues I guarantee you'll have if you keep them

I'd be calling them to a meeting on Monday morning (even though you are on holiday) where you verbally tell them you are terminating their employment. Followed up in writing. Kick start the recruitment process as I guarantee this person will not work their notice (there may be no notice period during probation), but will leave instead. Record the meeting if using Teams.

why?

They’re going to be a very entitled employee if you give in to their request. Leave/unpaid leave, cancel the trip or hand your notice in would be their options if I were in your position. And definitely extend the probation.

Well quite,why indeed? They're probably not paying for accommodation. That's the only difference.

Booking a holiday without agreeing the time off or alternative working arrangements with their line manager is ridiculous. This employee should be told that is not the way it works. You would be within your rights to refuse it. Whether you do or not is up to you and HR. But they need a stern warning whatever happens. Is there anything in their contract about working arrangements that they could he reminded of?

We have a WFH policy aligned with local statutory requirements but overseas working isn't covered.

For many (most?) countries it's not legal to work remotely without the appropriate visa & local taxes should be levied on income earned while working in that country.

That would be a difficult proposition for someone who had been in the role for a while never mind someone in a probation period. At the very least they should have discussed the logistics of how it might work before booking. Would be an absolute no from me.

I can see from posts you’re Aus, but probably need to think about the tax implications of them working for you from another company.

It’s not like you’re sending them abroad for business with a client, so imagine there may be a tax liability to consider.

This last bit has clinched it for me: they're a pisstaker.

The very most I would allow would be unpaid leave for the time they haven't accrued A/L for, and I would remind them of the procedure for booking A/L, and recommend that in future they check that leave will be possible before they book any trips away.

I’m not convinced that this is a generational thing, I know quite a few of this age group and younger and they would absolutely not expect to get away with this even as a permanent employee. P* takers come in all age categories.

I’m public sector, we are not allowed to work abroad, so this would be a breach with a disciplinary and sacking if we persisted and took the trip.

A colleague had a holiday rearranged from COVID and one of the two weeks fell in term time. As the job included term time holidays only allowed with permission, she wasn’t given permission and couldn’t go. Her parents went and she joined them for the second week,

For me there is no ‘conversation in passing’ when someone is mentioning they might go away for a month. It was like a big massive gauntlet for you to pick up right there. But. How to deal ?

They will have been with you long enough to know how to ask for leave. And to do it formally ? If you don’t have processes in place other than asking verbally you are on a sticky wicket. If you don’t have email requests or something similar then make sure you do in future. They have presented you with a no notice request for leave. For a month! Except they may have interpreted the ‘chat’ as an all clear to go ahead. Since you didn’t ask or say no I need to think about that.

If you think they are a bit naive then certainly still go over the formal arrangements for booking leave. And it isn’t a ‘chat’ that is ‘I’m thinking I might’.

I would not approve the shortened hours or overnight working, no. Explain that the chat of ‘I might be’ was not a clear ‘ can I ask you if it would be okay to take leave for a month ‘? And that you are consequently left high and dry with no notice. So if he takes it, it is as unpaid leave. Surely he must have realised that this might not be okay ? Explain it will impact his probation. All behaviours and work have to be considered when assessing. This is part of that.

Explain you are disappointed. It is foolish to make someone stay if they don’t want to so I would be inclined to let him go. But as long as he knows you are very unhappy and it will be part of his probation assessment. And unpaid.

I wouldn’t hire him.

The 10 hour time difference means that they will not be able to carry out their duties. Unless it's project work which needs zero input from anyone else in the same time zone.

I find it hard enough working with Eastern US time zone colleagues, which is - 5 hours to BST.

Is it annual leave or a working holiday, or what? I don't understand their expectations.