AIBU to think a junior probationer’s month abroad request is unreasonable?

[estrogone]

We have a junior in our office who’s only been with us about three months and is still on probation, where the expectation is mostly office-based work. They briefly mentioned in passing at one point that they might travel overseas, but there was never any proper discussion or approval before the trip was booked.

They’ve now come back and advised the trip is already booked and confirmed for nearly a month overseas, in a time zone 10 hours away. They proposed a range of adjusted working arrangements, including shortened hours and overnight work, so they can continue working remotely while away.

I haven’t approved the shortened hours or alternative arrangements and have asked them to demonstrate how they realistically intend to maintain service levels and cope with working nights while effectively on holiday overseas.

I am a lot WTAF to four weeks of leave for someone who has only been with the business a matter of months and is still in probation.

AIBU to think this is request is out of order?

If you let them do this then surely, once word gets around, none of your otherstaff will want to put in for their annual leave. Say they need to use all their leave to cover school holidays so they save if for that, fancy and if they fancy other time off in addition just make up convoluted plan how they can still do their work, and get paid, while climbing mountains or deep sea diving.

I'd maybe go in with just a 'No, I am not approving this as paid leave,' and then depending on their attitude consider offering the unpaid as an option - if they shrug and say 'Ok well I won't be coming in, so shall I hand in my notice now,' let them. If they are gutted and say they really want to keep the job, but they'd already booked the trip before getting it and didn't know how to bring it up, blah blah blah, I'd maybe consider it, but with a stern warning that they cannot do this again, it's not fair on your other staff.

You're nice re they're only 25!! That's old enough to know this isn't how things work, if they were 17 I could be empathetic. They've shown disrespect to you and little regard for their job. It would be taking the piss to book a week off without checking, yet alone at a new job, yet alone in a probationary period, yet alone for this length of time. I can imagine if you said yes they'd have problems and issues whilst working away. Also working on a holiday, you're on holiday or you're working. Good luck

If it does not meaningfully suit the needs of the business as laid out prior to them booking the trip then I would be declining this, what they've spent on the holiday isn't a factor as this was their own decision. They haven't posed a reasonable or workable set of adjustments, they have effectively decided they are going regardless. I would expect that they would simply leave when you decline the request - I have had quite a few young people over the years simply quit when similar holiday requests have been declined - big summer trips, short notice things they regard as once-in-a-lifetime opportunities etc

I doubt anyone is really so stupid as to not understand, on probation especially, that this is likely not to wash. I wouldn't eb considering any other action other than declining the request and additionally would not be keeping them on either, given they are on probation. This shows very poor lack of judgement and a lack of professionalism that I wouldn't view it as my/others jobs to educate or correct.

I think there may be tax issues if they work from a different country. Does your employment contract state they need to have holiday approved before booking tickets?
I personally think they’re a CF, I’ve had someone do this to me before as he was working in the UK and booking tickets home and just assumed he could work from Asia without fan checking first. He was a lying snake to be honest so I had no concerns about telling him no … I wouldn’t have any worries telling this person no either … he’ll leave I suspect but hey ho!

Is this not quite the red flag for this employee’s future behaviour though?

Firstly it depends what your HR Policy is as to whether it’s an unreasonable request or not.

Secondly it depends on what your Information Security policy is on working from abroad and taking company equipment to certain countries which can be blocked due to high risk.

So it really depends on the size of your organisation as to what provisions are in place that mean this isn’t a query of opinion but rather what the company does or doesn’t support for all its employees.

It is an absolute crimson, scarlet, burgundy, petunia, pillar box, cardinal red
flag yes.

Unless this person leaves (or is fired) existing members of staff would be well within their rights to try the same thing. You say no. They then escalate a grievance as they’ve been there, what, ten years and never had any such consideration. THey resign and claim CD. You settle as you don’t want the costs and distraction. The whole thing costs hundreds of thousands not to mention management time.

It is a massive red flag covering a huge can of worms, to mix a few metaphors.

The could have very easily lied and made out it was for a family related issue

they didn’t. They were absolutely upfront.., this is a holiday.

So that is a positive

Id be wtaf too. Decline and tell them their 4 weeks is their notice of failed probation

I would tell them that they cannot work whilst they are travelling. End of.

I would tell them that as they didn’t clarify the dates with you then they are lucky that you’re not dismissing them.

Tell them that you’ll be nice and offer 2 weeks of it as AL and the other 2 weeks as unpaid.
Or they can hand in their notice.

I think they’re going to claim they told you about it though.

@estrogone they are junior. With all the struggles young people face (and this person is likely being paid not much at all) just let them
do it. If it doesn’t work then it’s a no in the future isn’t it?

They’re hardly crucial to the business if a junior. Why be a piece of work about it? Pardon the pun.

Are they good? If so I’d probably see if they can have one month unpaid leave if no I’d reject their request and they’ll probably leave.

OP, I'm also in Australia. As a business owner, this would be a pain in the arse for sure, but having read your posts, it seems like you may have identified a gap in your onboarding process as well as a mismatch between what you and I would think is common sense, the right way to do things and the expectations of the younger generation.

As you've said this person has been a hard worker and starting over with training someone new, I'd have a good look at what you might be able to make work.

Our family travels a lot. My husband still works when away. Our recent trip to Asia, the time difference was a big help. He would start between 5-6 am, depending on meetings and be available for pretty much all morning meetings in Aus time. We were not on a scheduled vacation type of tour, so this really heps as we can work around meetings. The family and I can go off and explore in the mornings, leaving DH to work, by afternoon, things were wrapping up in Aus and so then he would do things with us. He would then put in another 3-4 hours each night, once we were back at the hotel. DH travelled with laptops from more than one company as he is a consultant and they use different software.

You mention this person staying with family, so this isn't an organised tour and it would give them some flexibility. Are you sure there's not any parts of the role they can still cover, therefore leaving less of a gap in the role? Just trying to find a way to manage the circumstances, even though clearly not ideal for you.

I get that it's a pain for you, but maybe there are parts of the role they can still do, leaving you with less that needs covering by a temp.

Just a BIT cf??

I’d say 100% cheeky fucker-ish.

And would terminate their probation period PDQ.

My organisation don’t permit working from abroad for data security reasons.

Talk to them! Sit them down and explain this really is NOT the kind of leeway and commitment expected of someone during their training period. Say that it is not feasible for them to work during this period - security issues/time difference etc and that it is not company policy to allow staff to book a month's leave without approval. They might say it's not leave, they wish to work, but you may need to spell out to them the reasons this isn't possible. Explain how very inconvenient it is for your company to have that gap in the work force for a whole month.

This person sounds staggeringly immature, as if they have been raised in an environment where they always get what they want and assume it as a right. But you say they are talented and good at their job, so give them the chance to back down and cancel the leave, or if you feel generous, to take the full month of leave unpaid and to extend their probation period.

How they react will be the eye opener. If they sulk or argue back, they are not mature enough for the workplace yet. If they listen and understand and make adjustments, they are.

Bloody hell that's insane.
Of course yanbu.

Absolute no to this probationer remote working from overseas. If they are working then they are doing so right here, not as a side-gig while travelling.

They presumably haven't earned more than a week or so of Annual Leave yet so the best deal I would offer them would be that they can have a week as paid A/L and 3 weeks unpaid leave but their probation will be extended by a further 2 months after their return so that you can properly evaluate their performance without an interruption like this.

If they don't like that they can resign. A job isn't a hobby to be squeezed in when you have time.

Imagine great jobs aren't easy to come by ... they're about to learn a tough lesson. As they should.

If you have to hire a temp will you be paying a premium for that over what you'd pay an employee?
Will you be required to pay the local authorities any equivalent of employer's taxes for the period they work there? Are there any regulatory hoops for the business to jump through to allow employees to work for you while physically in that location? One of the countries to which I used to travel for work required my employer to do a load of paperwork to confirm that they were paying me at least as much as the going rate for a local with the same qualifications for the duration of my stay, even though I was only ever there for a couple of days at a time.
I think the employee is being quite naive to assume they can just work from wherever they like without it causing inconvenience and extra costs to the business.

What kind of visa does he have?

People absolutely suck but in my years of managing a team of people at varying levels of seniority, I’ve never read anything with as much of a bright red flag as this. If this happens in their first few months of employment when I would expect them to be the most committed I can’t even imagine what happens next. It would be a hard no from me, referring to the company policy re: leave approvals and then it’s their choice whether to keep their job and sacrifice the trip or vice versa. It’s absolutely outrageous!

I wouldn't worry too much about about them losing money: that's obviously a risk they decided to take.

It seems relatively simple to me. Unless they have already proved themselves invaluable and/or you risk losing a valuable client if they go, I'd basically tell them they've failed probation because of their disregard of basic company procedures and consideration for their colleagues, and start recruiting a replacement.

They're still on probation, meaning you don't yet have the full measure of them - their character, their abilities, their levels of professionalism.

The fact that they - while still on probation - booked this trip away without asking first indicates that they are seriously lacking in professionalism (and have a level of entitlement I would find out of order in a senior Royal).

I'd be denying their request to work in this way, and take it from there. Do you have a HR department to help share the decision to bin them before they cause any more disruption with their unrealisict expectations?

Get rid of them. They are chancers/CFs who, if you keep them on and allow them to pass probation, will absolutely keep taking liberties when they have full employment rights.