AIBU to think a junior probationer’s month abroad request is unreasonable?

[estrogone]

We have a junior in our office who’s only been with us about three months and is still on probation, where the expectation is mostly office-based work. They briefly mentioned in passing at one point that they might travel overseas, but there was never any proper discussion or approval before the trip was booked.

They’ve now come back and advised the trip is already booked and confirmed for nearly a month overseas, in a time zone 10 hours away. They proposed a range of adjusted working arrangements, including shortened hours and overnight work, so they can continue working remotely while away.

I haven’t approved the shortened hours or alternative arrangements and have asked them to demonstrate how they realistically intend to maintain service levels and cope with working nights while effectively on holiday overseas.

I am a lot WTAF to four weeks of leave for someone who has only been with the business a matter of months and is still in probation.

AIBU to think this is request is out of order?

I'd only offer the unpaid leave if you REALLY want to keep them. Most places I've worked are strict on the amount of leave that can be taken during probation anyway, unless there are extenuating circumstances

I would be happy to get rid of someone with this attitude at the earliest opportunity.

I wouldn't dwell on the lost months of training; I'd be looking to the future and the nightmare of managing a 25-year-old with the sense of entitlement of a child.

This person has shown you who they are (e.g., sneaky well-timed emails) and also demonstrated a complete lack of commitment to your business and their future career prospects.

By continuing to employ them and enabling them to gain employment rights I think you're setting yourself up for real trouble and possible financial loss in the future.

You do not want someone with this attitude on your team.
The idea they went for forgiveness rather than permission leaving you worrying that they will lose thousands if you say no just shows the huge gaping chasm between their attitude and yours. Added to that the blatant posting it when you could potentially not see it for more than a week. Throw this one back, there is no way indulging them will make them less likely to do it again when they are harder to get rid of.

When people show you who they are believe them, especially if they are showing this entitled and quite frankly selfish attitude towards the company and that has given them an opportunity. If they are like this in probation ask yourself what will they be like if they were to stay on after. Also think of the impact on the wider team, how they will feel picking up the slack if this person has 4 weeks unpaid leave at short notice. I think it’s a choice between the job and the extended holiday.

I'd simply decline.

And if they proceed to go anyway, just say if you fail to turn as expected, then you will be immediately fired.

Not complex at all.

But usually people know to say they've got holiday booked when they go for a job.

Even youngsters will be told that as part of their careers advice from their universities (or just their parents!)

I'd be inclined to give unpaid leave and extend probation. You might be cutting your nose off to spite your face if you let them go - and if you find they are rubbish you can still end their employment at the end of their probation.

I assume it's not an event like a wedding they need to attend (though they wouldn't' need to go for a month - I had a colleague who went to a wedding in Austraia and she went and came back in a week - not idea - but clearly do-able!)

The other option is to say that they need to cut it down to two weeks. They can change their outward or inward flight - yes it will cost them but it's better than losing their job?

In which case you dont have the resources for assessment of risks and tax implications.
A small company can't afford to take risks so there's your answer. Same with taking leave that is not in line with policy.

OP, what’s the leave policy where you work? For example, do people run leave requests past their manager?

In future, I’d suggest making clear to the probationer that they need to run all leave requests by you BEFORE booking, and that the leave request hasn’t been granted until you confirm it has. You really want to avoid setting a precedent for this, to avoid them thinking it’s okay to work from abroad whenever they want in future.

I am away to my bed. Thank you all for your opinions and suggestions. I may show them this thread (not really)

If I felt they be good at the job long term and it was a pain to find suitable grads in would say they take unpaid leave and you extend their probation. If the skills they have are easily obtainable then I would say no, they need to leave if they want a month off.

the fact that they went and booked it before getting it signed off and agreeing it is ridiculous. Maybe send an email round and remind people they need to get leave or time out the office approved before they book it.

I am tempted to hard arse it, but they are 25 and would lose thousands.

And? That's their lookout, not yours. They are trying to manipulate you into agreeing, do it once, they will continue to walk all over you.

The job market is brutal at the moment, you'll have no issue finding a replacement.

It would be a firm no from me. They’ve only been in post 7 months and are already trying to push boundaries, the suggested WFH abroad doesn’t suit the needs of the business. What will other employees think about a probationer given this amount of unpaid leave to galvant abroad? This could open a can of worms if you don’t have a policy in place.

Edited to add it’s not your problem if they lose their money, they shouldn’t have booked it in the first place, it’s a hard lesson to learn for them but the needs of your business come first. They sound incredibly entitled expecting to WFH abroad without even discussing this with you in person.

What is the policy in your company re - leave during probation

You mentioned they are client-facing with one client and that them being away so long would leave the business exposed. If that’s your general setup - you have several staff who assigned to a single customer - what’s your procedure for covering holidays, sickness, or other possibly extended periods when the specific staff member is not available?

If you don’t have one, you need one ASAP.

I wouldn't even bother to play some elaborate game with them. 1 they don't have enough leave accrued. 2 they have not followed policy and booked time off before booking the holiday. 3 the breaches of policy alone are enough to mean they have failed their probation as they cannot do their job properly.

They were expecting special treatment in order to take the time off, but they've instead presented you with a fait accompli and, as you've posted OP, they are being manipulative in the way they've approached it. If they had said they would like to take unpaid leave that's one thing. But they haven't.

If you are feeling benevolent, they can take unpaid leave. Otherwise terminate their employment and get in someone who wants to do the job.

Nope, needs to learn how the business world works. Whilst there is some flexibility nowadays, this is totally unreasonable.
Holidays must be approved, there are limits on how long you can take holidays for in many businesses. You can’t allow this person to dictate the rules. As it will happen again, and others may follow suit.
The working abroad thing is ridiculous IMO and isn’t going to get done.
You either agree to unpaid leave or let them go completely

This.
Unreasonable to work abroad.
Tell her to take hols or unpaid leave if not enough leave and extend probation by a month.

I definitely wouldn’t agree to WFH

but otherwise very strong and doing well and heading hard… I would agree to unpaid leave

No. They will need to take unpaid leave. They certainly can't be paid to work when on holiday.

Tough one. We've had two members of staff go back to their country of origin soon into working with us - one after 3 months (for 5 weeks) and one did 2 weeks probation and then went away for a month. Both times we were fairly happy to accommodate because we knew it must be hard living a long way from home and that visits tended to be rare therefore long, etc. The first person worked three of the five weeks he was away and took two as holiday, the second just took it unpaid. So I don't think wanting to go is that much of a pisstake - presumably it's visiting family so they might not have had much say in when it was but also (given the current job market, although maybe not in Aus) be desperate to have a job and just hoping it works out. Their mistake was not being upfront about it in the first place, I think - but while it looks sneaky or deliberate it could just as easily be youthful overconfidence, being terrified to tell you, family pressure and triyng to do both, etc etc. I wouldn't immediately assume malice over idiocy.

If it were me I'd probably give them a stern warning about communicating properly instead of hoping everything works out and say we could trial 2 weeks of it working and 2 weeks unpaid, but if I noticed a drop in standards then they would have to take it all unpaid. Or just offer it unpaid and see what they say.

Just read your post OP where they mooted the idea and you say you didn't respond. I have learned over the years to make my opinion on such matters crystal clear because otherwise CFs take the lack of comment as implicit agreement. I'm not talking only about work situations. That they may have thought they could go ahead (I guarantee that will be their response) is not your concern. It wasn't a formal request in line with policy and it wasn't agreed to.

If they behave like this now they will be a nightmare in future.

I’d go for extending probation and giving them unpaid leave, let them know not to take their laptop out of the country.

There aren’t many workplaces where you can book a month off at short notice for a holiday!

Unpaid leave and extension of probation is the most generous I could be, I don’t know if I’d keep them. It’s just not the attitude I’d want- they are hoping to be paid for doing halfassed work while on holiday during probation. And let’s be honest, probation is the opportunity to see if someone works out. Anyone who’s thought about failing someone’s probation, not done that and then regretted it enormously understands that. I’d check very carefully your policies and contract though, and say what they are in breach of.

Actually I agree with this, with the angle that I'm assuming this person is fairly young and I've found Gen Zs need everything making absolutely crystal clear for them - they have got pretty poor professional 'temperature taking' skills, IME. So although they're still in the wrong, I think it's a wider trend of them not really understanding how the working world works/what's appropriate. Most of the Gen Zs I employ now didn't have a job until they left university - whereas most of my friends had jobs from 14 onwards, so I think they're not learning how to exist in a boss/employee relationship and it's making them stupid!