AIBU to think a junior probationer’s month abroad request is unreasonable?

[estrogone]

We have a junior in our office who’s only been with us about three months and is still on probation, where the expectation is mostly office-based work. They briefly mentioned in passing at one point that they might travel overseas, but there was never any proper discussion or approval before the trip was booked.

They’ve now come back and advised the trip is already booked and confirmed for nearly a month overseas, in a time zone 10 hours away. They proposed a range of adjusted working arrangements, including shortened hours and overnight work, so they can continue working remotely while away.

I haven’t approved the shortened hours or alternative arrangements and have asked them to demonstrate how they realistically intend to maintain service levels and cope with working nights while effectively on holiday overseas.

I am a lot WTAF to four weeks of leave for someone who has only been with the business a matter of months and is still in probation.

AIBU to think this is request is out of order?

Seen your update OP and agree it’s the best avenue in the circumstances.

i would definitely have to make a remark about the untruth in the interview (not going back home) and how difficult this has made things. It’s very self centred of the junior especially given the possible tax consequences of them working from overseas could (if unlikely) be significant!

i think you’re being very reasonable in the circumstances and hope it works out!

This is SOOOO TRUE.

@estrogone if you asked whether they had plans to visit their home country, and they said no, and if they booked the leave before joining, then they have lied to you.

I would let them go, simply because I would not want to keep on an employee who had already lied to me during the interview process about something fairly important like this. I would not be able to trust them. Whereas had they brought this up BEFORE I made the hiring decision, I would have been annoyed by the inconvenience and grateful for the evidence of trustworthiness, and I probably would have found a way to make it work

But that is me - I, personally, place a huge importance on trust, even if sometimes this means missing out on opportunities.

You are the successful business owner who will have faced tricky decisions like this before, and if you can make it work for you with the plan you described, then yours will be the right approach.

I would think, it benefits nobody sacking them because it’s 4 weeks away and you can’t train someone up.

I would state booking this has been unacceptable and it does them no favours performing this way as it’s not company procedure.

I would then agree to compromise and state:

• take two weeks paid annual leave
• take two weeks unpaid OR if you’ve got not alternative cover for this time, work it but UK hours. They like it or lump it.

Personally it's a straight no from me. This person has just started a new job and booked an extended overseas trip without consent or approval. It smacks of entitlement and contempt for colleagues, which is only continue or get worse. However good they may be, they are unreliable and untrustworthy.

I’ve been reading quickly, but I think this reply on p 6 may be the first to discuss the implications for your team, OP. Apologies to PP if that is wrong.

How are your longer term employees going to feel if they see this entitled young CF get away with this? You know that everyone will be picking up the slack. For that reason alone, I would offer the probationer the choice between cancelling (or requesting accrued leave only) and resigning.

That’s more than fair of you, OP. How they respond will tell you all you need to know about them. Definitely get the ball rolling on a temp, and make sure you find the best person you can, because I suspect this individual will make a scene and then flounce.

Good solution, OP.

We have work the world in my organisation and I think it’s great. You still have to go through the process of clearing it through proper channels and there are rules. This is essential for tax and governance reasons. This person has been in the organisation a matter of weeks and is already pushing boundaries beyond belief. They are not showing the right traits and are a risk going forwards.

Pro data means they wouldn’t have enough leave in a year to take this much anyway

@InLoveWithAI @BillieWiper Did you not see that the person would be expecting to hang out with family during the day and then allegedly work from 9pm to 5am, in line with where the OP's organisation is? When are they sleeping? You think this is a realistic proposal to present to your (new) employer? The OP doesn't know this employee well yet, this is not the same as accommodating a staff member with a history at the company. This is setting aside the cheeky 'notice' they gave over email when they knew the OP was going way.

I wonder how long they'll stay in the job anyway. Wanting to return home so quickly smacks of home sickness.

I think you @ the wrong person as I was saying how ridiculous it was that they were trying to say they could work from holiday?!

What if the probationer was a parent who needed a month off work to have children over the summer holidays? Would you land at a different decision then? Personally, I'd offer this employee to take the 5 days off paid leave, the rest as unpaid and extend probation by another month, as PP suggested. I think that's the best case scenario and if they don't like that response, to hand in their notice

I think you are being too soft on them. For booking a month off without approval and with insufficient leave accrued and during probation period, I’d get rid of them. Utter lack of commitment and professionalism.

But they aren't.

And what if it was for child care, would they want a month off every summer? Would everyone with children then want a month off in the summer? Should they all get it?

I mean, what if the probationer needs a month off to build a straw man one blade of straw at a time...

Thanks again for the different thoughts and perspectives. This is a tough one - I have let them know that WFH is not approved.

We are generally have a very trusting culture but telling me they are taking leave after the fact and demanding altered working hours for four weeks after just three months on the job has pushed my good nature a step too far. I have other employees and their morale and best interests to consider.

This person is at best misguided and has taken our flexibility for granted, which is such a shame. We have never encountered a situation like this before, so I am doing my best to remain completely calm and professional and not be a pushover.

Are you really planning on advertising, interviewing, hiring, training another person for 4 weeks?

sorry!

I think that is fair and kind.

I am going to say they can go on unpaid leave - with their probation period to restart from when they return for another 6 months. I am going recruit a temp with a handover for cover and if this person works out, well....

I don’t blame you, but if you employ a temp to cover a permanent post then decide the temp is a better fit, would it be legal to replace the permanent staff member with the temp?

You’re right to consider your other employees. In such a small outfit, all eyes and ears will be on you now, as they have to live with the fallout from any decision you take, as well as you and the business as a whole.
You need to be firm but fair and recognise that you will be setting a precedent for others to have an expectation of later down the line.

I'm in the UK and coming up to retirement and have been in a management role in various businesses for years now. Not sure of the rules where you are but:

I think a fair, legally safe (UK wise), business‑sensible response is:

1. Explain that overseas remote working is not permitted, especially during probation. Explain that the time‑zone makes it impossible to meet the needs of the role if they were hoping to work whilst abroad. If appropriate also advise this affects the insurance for the laptop and data protection is a consideration.
2. Decline the request for a month’s leave, whether paid or unpaid, because the business cannot absorb the absence.

Or, Offer him the choice: *cancel or shorten the trip *or take it as unpaid leave if you can tolerate it (sounds like you can’t) *or accept that going ahead may end his employment This is firm, fair, and entirely reasonable.

Going forward, make sure that you have employment contracts that clarify your stance and something along the lines of (depending upon the laws in your country):

Annual Leave Requests All annual leave requests must be submitted through the approved leave‑request system and authorised by management before any commitments are made. Commitments made without prior approval may not be honoured, and any resulting loss will be at the employee’s own expense.

Anticipating Leave Permanent employees may request to take annual leave that has not yet been accrued (“anticipated leave”) only with prior management approval.

Employees in their probationary period may only take annual leave that has been accrued unless management gives explicit prior approval. Probationary periods cannot be shortened or bypassed by anticipating leave.

Any anticipated annual leave taken will be recovered from final salary if the employee leaves the Company before it is accrued.

Leave on Termination All accrued annual leave must be taken before the employee’s final working day unless management approves payment in lieu. Payment in lieu of holiday is at management’s discretion.

Maximum Length of Leave Employees may take a maximum of 10 consecutive working days of annual leave at any one time, unless exceptional circumstances apply and written approval is given by management.

Pre‑Booked Holidays at Recruitment Where an applicant has declared pre‑booked holiday in writing before an offer of employment is made, the Company will honour that booking. All other leave will be subject to the rules above.

OP before you give a decision to junior I would take employment law advice to make sure you aren’t inadvertfalling in any legal holes. Eg going over a time limit for unfair dismissal claims.

Based off what you’ve said personally I would exit them unless they are a superstar. This is unlikely to be the last issue with this person. I’ve had to exit staff on performance and behaviours and I generally look back and think I let that go on too long and gave them too many chances.

No worries, we've all done it! 😄